B&H Photo Selling Integrator-Level Cameras

IPVMU Certified

I bought my wife's point and shoot from BHP, and also noticed they are selling high-end surveillance equipment. No sales tax outside of NY/NJ ! Very good prices.

BHP link to a Bosch

Does this anger the integrators?

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John Honovich

IPVM

Yes, B&H is generally not an integrator favorite.

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Fletcher Williams

In reply to John Honovich

IPVMU Certified

Based on what distributors like Anixter have told me, the integrators have the power to go to the manufacturers about things like this. The manufacturers could force the retailer to put enough points on it so there's no benefit/ability to undercutting the integrator.

In this specific case, I got a quote from my integrator (a very large one) on a box sale for this camera, $1600. B&H only $1287 (and no sales tax).

I was quite shocked.

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John Honovich

IPVM

Anixter, the king of selling direct?

Based on what distributors like Anixter have told me, the integrators have the power to go to the manufacturers about things like this.

Integrators don't have that power, period. If they unionized or banded together and flat refused to buy for brands that sold to B&H, yes. But fragmented as they are, no.

In this specific case, I got a quote from my integrator (a very large one) on a box sale for this camera, $1600. B&H only $1287 (and no sales tax).

I don't know the details of your integrator and the situation, etc. Could be they are gouging you, could be they are factoring in warranty (i.e., no cost to roll a truck to your site and fix it), install, support, etc.

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Fletcher Williams

IPVMU Certified

Greedy integrators might be driving savvy end users into the arms of B&H, Anixter, et al.

bosch from integrator

This is a "Box Sale" quote with no support. It's a large integrator. I wish I had started this topic as Undisclosed so I could give more details.

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John Honovich

IPVM

Fletcher, thanks!

That's unfortunate. I bet there is some sort of policy that requires such a minimum markup but, for years, it's been super easy to price check quotes on the Internet so it's a foolish tactic. Their loss!

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Michael Miller

Fletcher... What do you think is fair markup? It costs a lot more to have trucks with trained techs to service products then it does to push boxes.

Also, don't forget about paying USE Tax for the product you order from B&H.

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Fletcher Williams

IPVMU Certified

For a box sale? No more than 20 points if it is in stock, which these are.

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Michael Miller

When you say stock do you mean B&H has them in stock or the integrator stocks them?

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Fletcher Williams

IPVMU Certified

This is the email the integrator sent me.

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Fletcher Williams

IPVMU Certified

By the way, if I had hypothetically just gotten an Anixter quote for the same model, I hypothetically think it would have been for $1368.

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Fletcher Williams

IPVMU Certified

I just photoshopped what a hypothetical Anixter quote would look like if they would have hypothetically offered to sell the camera for $1368.

deleted

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Fletcher Williams

IPVMU Certified

By the way, does anyone have any experience with this camera? It hasn't yet been evaluated by IPVM.

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John Honovich

IPVM

See: Bosch IR PTZ Tested. I believe it's the same model but not positive.

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Fletcher Williams

In reply to John Honovich

IPVMU Certified

That's it, thanks! I didn't see it pop up in the camera finder so I assumed you had no lit on it.

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Ari Erenthal

Chesapeake & Midlantic

B&H has been selling integrator level cameras for more than a decade at this point.

It's not just end users either, lots of smaller integrators buy from B&H because they get better prices than they would from distributors.

B&H also has pretty decent pre- and post-sales support, too.

They're not alone, either. You can buy almost anything online nowadays, if you know where to look, at low prices. There's no such thing as protecting the channel.

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Undisclosed Integrator #3

•Jul 14, 2018

No such thing as protecting the channel is true - if you sell Bosch. There are brands not on B&H or Amazon for smart integrators to pick from.

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Ari Erenthal

In reply to Undisclosed Integrator #3

Chesapeake & Midlantic

Don't be naive. There are almost no brands that are not available somewhere online.

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John Honovich

IPVM

Avigilon, IndigoVision, Qognify, March Networks

There are some brands that are very hard to find online and not practical to buy in any quantities.

And Avigilon is a strong competitor to Bosch.

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Undisclosed Integrator #3

In reply to John Honovich

Also, Genetec.

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Michael Miller

There's no such thing as protecting the channel.

One of the reasons I have very little interest in Bosch.

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Ari Erenthal

Chesapeake & Midlantic

How interested are you in Axis, for example?

There are very few brands not available online. I don’t understand why we have to have this argument every 2-3 years.

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Michael Miller

Not very interested for many reasons just like Bosch.

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Undisclosed Integrator #3

I have shut down Bosch for the same reason. Axis is a bit more difficult as the product is really good. Bosch is just sufficient.

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Undisclosed Integrator #1

If you're buying Bosch just reach out direct they have a very LAX definition of an integrator. We can buy direct from them at a discount and we are just a large end user. A lot of integrators will argue at you on the cost of their business to function being the reason for higher prices and stand on top of those high prices. However, as more and more tech smart and competent end users bypass them for distributors willing to sell direct, ADI, Anixter, etc or integrators understanding that on low touch orders with no warranty can be sold at a lower price something will have to give. Maybe some DC style lobbying to keep the ADI's from selling direct or just offering a fair price up front. Not listing them because I like them not being attacked and selling me my things at a good discount. Finally, I feel like the good integrators really won't be bothered by this at all. To me a good integrator you have a long history of providing exceptional service and reasonable prices, not bottom dollar internet pricing, and be willing to say look Fletcher you're smart and don't need me to install that camera for you. I cannot sell it to you at the same price as BHP because I am not BHP I will not insult you by giving you a quote you won't want if you don't insult me by saying I am gouging you.

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Undisclosed Integrator #2

You said Anixter quoted you $1368, which is the same price I get from their site.

1368*1.20 = 1641

You were quoted 1604

You are assuming they are paying less than BHP. That may not be the case.

They are an I N T G E G R A T O R, not an E-Commerce site or box pusher. Just because YOU don't want support, doesn't mean they don't have a team of highly trained techs. It's a different business model.

It's not the 10% Chinese tariff that is going to break us, its thought processes like this.

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Fletcher Williams

In reply to Undisclosed Integrator #2

IPVMU Certified

You make a fair point, but my "thought process" isn't what's going to break you, it is the hundreds of thousands of people like myself who are perfectly capable of doing their own basic-level surveillance integrations because of leaps in technology that make cameras just glorified network hosts. Every day, more and more corporations are turning over more and more of their security functions to IT. Once a group of intelligent people get over a bit of a learning curve, they can install and manage it just fine because it's all just zeros and ones in the end. Of course there will always be applications where a security expert is needed, but for basic level things, they are being phased out. But they have to buy their hardware from someone. As said, the internet is such that this will never be an issue for end users.

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Undisclosed Integrator #2

There will be companies that always want to do numerous things themselves. I wonder how much time you have spent researching cameras, analytics, etc. It may be more of a passion or hobby for you.

make cameras just glorified network hosts

Once a group of intelligent people get over a bit of a learning curve, they can install and manage it just fine because it's all just zeros and ones in the end

LOL, I will just say I disagree.

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Fletcher Williams

In reply to Undisclosed Integrator #2

IPVMU Certified

Very intellectually dishonest of you to use that quote without including the next sentence "Of course there will always be applications where a security expert is needed."

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Undisclosed Integrator #2

Not sure why you think its dishonest or unhelpful. The way I interpret that is you think a camera is just some network device, with no regard to installation, design, resolution, lighting, settings, etc. That's the point. The fact you think a professional should step in at some point is irrelevant.

How much time has your intelligent group spent researching and getting over the learning curve? Could that time have been better used doing something else?

Our best customer has the IT department manage the cameras at all locations and we do all the camera work. They were programming and staging equipment, then hiring cable pullers to install. There was always some form of troubleshooting and the cable pullers didn't know how to troubleshoot. So they hired us and we have been the sole vendor for camera work, and now alarms. They used to buy their own hardware and now pay a markup (more than 20%) for the hardware from us, plus labor. I have seen their previous bids and we are probably double. But they realized in the long run, they actually save money.

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Fletcher Williams

In reply to Undisclosed Integrator #2

IPVMU Certified

That's why I said there will always be a place for integrators, which is a very important sentence in context of what you decided to quote then LOL at, which is intellectually dishonest.

When IT can't figure something out, they are going to have to call an expert, and pay expert prices. But, with IT very capable of doing alot of the work, that's going to hurt integrators more and more *FOR BASIC THINGS*.

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Fletcher Williams

IPVMU Certified

Agree or Disagree... use the buttons...

(I thought about making a new topic for this, I'll leave that decision to Big John)

If a licensed contractor gets hired-on full time by his biggest customer but continues to use his previous channels to get discounted materials and hardware for his employer (former customer), it's ok for distributors to sell to the "end user". Assume the former contractor maintains his license in good standing.

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John Honovich

IPVM

Note I created a new post here: If An End User Hires A Licensed Contractor, Is It Ok For A Distributor To Sell To An End User?

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Undisclosed Integrator #3

•Jul 14, 2018

You still have to pay USE TAX.

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Shannon Davis

IPVMU Certified

What everyone always forgets is the "After the sale" part. Servicing the camera under the warranty period costs the integrator money, hence a higher markup. Sure not every camera sold will need to be serviced in the warranty period but some will. Cameras are computers and computers often have issues. The first time you have to service the camera you probably have just paid more for the camera than had you bought and had it installed by an integrator. I get it, some integrators have high margins, especially really large ones. The national integrators often have a corporate tax it charges to the branches which is typically 10% added to the sale price.

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Undisclosed Integrator #1

In reply to Shannon Davis

I think the challenge here is not that we, end users, are forgetting this it's just that in some cases we don't need or want that warranty. If integrators had better box sale pricing they could remain in the running with the BHPs and similar product only sellers. Or my preference, just tell me hey for item only I can't beat ADI/Anixter. I will respect you more, not waste your time when I don't need warranty, and send you more work later when we have larger projects or want warranty. I buy only Axis cameras, I and a few others in my business maintain Axis certification and reach out directly on any issues we have including advanced RMAs as needed. The cameras in my data centers don't need a warranty because we can easily troubleshoot remote, like we do with every IP POE camera, and if it needs local we can send our electrician to yank it and put up another.

*Note we may be a special case on the customer as we are fully trained in IDS, Video, Physical Security, CPTED, Access Control, etc. and only use integrators to install hardware at remote locations while we configure all of the software.

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Shannon Davis