Subscriber Discussion

How Can I Prevent The Homeless From Camping In ATM Vestibules?

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Feb 28, 2017

A banking customer has an ongoing problem with homeless individuals gaining access to the ATM vestibule after hours and camping out.  Trying to come up with potential solutions and hoping for some good ideas from the members.

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Brian Karas
Feb 28, 2017
IPVM

I worked with two major banks previously on this.

Basic solution:

  • Video analytics to detect loitering
  • Remote monitoring to review/verify alarms
  • Loud siren/strobe connected to relay output, triggered by remote operator
  • Police dispatch if above did not work

The monitoring was done by personnel at the bank's SOC, so monitoring costs were not directly measurable, but overall were relatively low workload.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Mar 01, 2017

How would the analytics distinguish between a vagrant versus an ATM customer?

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Brian Karas
Mar 01, 2017
IPVM

They really can't, that is where the loitering rule comes in. Most people are in and out in a few minutes, so the loitering rule was typical around 5 minutes. Sometimes you get an alarm from someone who is taking forever at the ATM, and in that case the remote operator sees the visual and just ignores the event.

Also, make sure you get a good vandal-proof siren/strobe setup. A speaker for audio talk-down was also common, that way the remote operators could give "guidance" to anyone attempting to disable the strobe/siren.

 

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Mar 01, 2017

Thanks for the information Brian.  This bank is paying a significant amount of money for an overnight guard.  The bank doesn't have a SOC and use our central station.  I think we're leaning towards a virtual guard type of solution...looking in at pre-determined times throughout each night (3-5 times).  We'll include audio talk down and police dispatch as well. I like the idea of including vandal proof strobe/siren as well.  We can probably cut the customer's cost by around 80% and should be very effective.

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Brian Karas
Mar 01, 2017
IPVM

This is, IMO, a good remote monitoring opportunity, so kudos to you if you manage to pick up the contract. Not sure if you've done other virtual guard work before, if not I can potentially give you some tips on pricing and software/automation.

Also, if you are going to be doing the remote monitoring, make sure you can connectivity between your central and the bank. My experience was that it was harder than normal to facilitate this, and one bank that did a smaller pilot deployed systems on 4G wireless because that was faster/easier that setting up remote connectivity that the bank's IT department would approve.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Mar 01, 2017

Maybe an annoying beeper that sounds 5 minutes after the last ATM transaction concludes and is triggered by a motion detector that detects motion in the vestibule. It can't be silenced until a bank customer accesses the ATM, starting another cycle. (Hmmmm?.....patent pending!)

(1)
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Michael Silva
Mar 01, 2017
Silva Consultants

One client solved an issue of homeless people sleeping in their doorway entrances using a switch mat (such as made by Tapeswitch) connected to a timer and an electronic siren. The timer was set to require a continuous activation of the mat for ~5 minutes before the siren would sound. Typically, the homeless person would get their bedroll spread out and lay down for a minute or two before the siren activated, scaring them to death. It didn't take long before the homeless population learned not to camp in this particular doorway.

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Mike Dotson
Mar 01, 2017
Formerly of Seneca • IPVMU Certified

At the bank I use, all the ATMs are behind a badge access door, where the badge is your bank card.

Are the vestibules in this discussion not protected by something similar?

How are they gaining access if they are?

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Ethan Ace
Mar 01, 2017

Same here but all those readers do is check to see if data exists on a track or two of the mag stripe of the card. It doesn't have to be a bank card specifically. As long as data exists, it opens the door.

Also, homeless doesn't necessarily  mean they won't have a bank card, anyway. 

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U
Undisclosed #3
Mar 02, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Also, homeless doesn't necessarily mean they won't have a bank card, anyway.

True.  And if you are going to bunk there you might as well bank there ;)

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oK
oleg Kush
Mar 01, 2017

Since IPVM is venturing into security/integration I'll offer advice from that side of the isle. 

 

About in 2007 there were few robberies in the atm vestibule. Bank installed "bank card reader" outside the door with auto door lock.

Programing was done as such... incert bank card and door unlocks....

with motion sensor...it would deactivate outside card reader....(only one person/group at a time)

next customer was not able to gain access until vestibule was clear.

Not sure if this was coincidence or this worked to spook off would be robbers... but no more robberies.

....to sumerize outside bank card access. No card no access.

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Ari Erenthal
Mar 01, 2017

What if you have more than one ATM, so more than one customer at a time can withdraw money? Seems like that's a pretty common configuration around here, although I confess I haven't done a survey or anything. 

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Mar 01, 2017

Appreciate the information but under this scenario, the vagrant would gain access and then no one else could enter it would seem.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Mar 01, 2017

That's why I suggested a motion triggered annoying beeping or some type of sound, not a siren or anything loud, but just something annoying, starts 5 minutes after the last ATM transaction concludes.  If the homeless person is camping in the vestibule they'll have to put up with the annoying sound, until a legitimate bank customer accesses the vestibule's ATM, which starts another cycle.  

I see someone gave me an "unhelpful" in my first comment, but did not explain why.  Please come back and let me know how this was unhelpful.

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Brian Karas
Mar 01, 2017
IPVM

FYI, I did not vote unhelpful, but can provide some feedback.

Banks see the ATMs as revenue sources, primarily for people from other banks using it, where the bank (or, private organization) that owns the ATM charges a processing fee. The potential issue with even a mildly annoying sound is that it deters customers from using the ATM, impacting revenue.

The other potential issue with your suggestion is that from my experience it is going to be near impossible to interface with the ATM in any way. Thus, it would be hard to rely on getting a signal from the ATM that a transaction was taking place.

 

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Mar 01, 2017

I'm not sure how the original poster is defining a vestibule.  It can be a room such as a kiosk or, not a room but an area or "cavity."    A room or kiosk can have an access lock controlled by an ATM card.  I think some banks do this now.  It doesn't seem impossible for ATM providers to have inputs/outputs on their device to accommodate this type of arrangement.

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Brian Karas
Mar 01, 2017
IPVM

The ATM-card locks are super easy to bypass. The kiosk basically needs to let in anyone with an ATM card, a credit card (for cash advances), etc. You can swipe a prepaid Visa card from the gas station, and even though it has a $0 balance and is unactivated, it would open most ATM vestibule doors.

It doesn't seem impossible for ATM providers to have inputs/outputs on their device to accommodate this type of arrangement.

In my experience, there was no easy way to hook any kind of equipment up the ATM. But, this is based on dealing mostly with two banks, maybe some have this capability, I'm just saying I would not count on it. The issue is that the ATM company and the bank are worried about anything that could compromise the physical security, cyber security, or general reliability of the ATM. I'm sure you could probably find some kind of formal process to officially interact with the ATM, but the costs might not be worth it, especially when there are other options that have worked fairly well.

 

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Mar 01, 2017

Also, to further add to my suggestion of an annoying beep or sound, motion activated 5 minutes after the last ATM transaction concludes, instead of a beeping noise, the sound could be a digital announcement on a loop that says something like, "This area is for ATM use only, no loitering or camping is permitted."  Once the ATM customer uses their card to access the kiosk or vestibule or ATM, the announcement stops.  Then after 5 minutes, should there be motion detected, the announcement starts continuously until the next ATM customer.

This may discourage homeless people from camping there as it might be too annoying.

oK
oleg Kush
Mar 01, 2017

Do expand on basic structure of limited acces... "vagrant would have to have credit card or atm card" to gain access. 

You can definitely employ siren after extended period of time to kick someone out.

The reason  "to restrict access" was for security... in your case it would stop homeless gaining access and even vandalizing place.

I'm looking back through files for the scan technology we integrated into creit card check.

JE
Jim Elder
Mar 02, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Use a voice annunicator that gradually gets louder. Opening the door says something like: "Welcome to xyz bank. Its our pleasure to serve our customers. Did you know that our bank gives free checking and ...." . Idea here is to use a greeting with an advert of some kind like a gas pump monitor (matter of fact there is even a service that does this).   Advance the volume a little at a time as long as the guy is still in the ATM. Reset when the door opens.  

My concern about the siren is that it's much like a shotgun burglar alarm; or the guy that wired a 120VAC death trap that killed the bad guy. In both of those cases, the burglar's family won the case. Now i don't think the siren is the same thing, but if you get a homeless guy with a bad heart that croaks because of a 110 db siren who knows... There are also particular sounds and tempos that are particularly uncomfortable.  At what that guard is costing, there is a lot of stuff that can be done. 

Make sure to tell us what you ended up doing 

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Ethan Ace
Mar 02, 2017

The increasing volume is a genius idea! 

I also think the siren is a bad idea, sort of cruel, but it also could violate local statutes if it goes off too loud and too long. Around here, audible sirens can only go off for ten minutes. It's a fineable offense beyond that. 

U
Undisclosed #3
Mar 02, 2017
IPVMU Certified

There are also particular sounds and tempos that are particularly uncomfortable.

For instance "The Macarena" on repeat or most Dave Matthews songs.

At what the guard is costing, there is a lot of stuff that can be done.

If all else fails, have the ATM spit out a fiver and say "Now beat it!"

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #4
Mar 06, 2017

Is there a way that the ATM terminal itself could provide a contact closure that it is actually in use by a patron?

That would give the security system the information it needs to correctly recognize and prevent a false vagrant alarm.

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Greg Levorchick
Mar 06, 2017

Try classical music.  We have several clients with foyers where homeless were camping out nightly.  These locations are in a downtown area with restaurants and other businesses, apartments & condos nearby so a siren or buzzer wasn't going to be a good option.  We decided to try something different.  We installed a speaker hooked to an MP3 player loaded with classical music.  Not sure why but it has worked well.   We've had these installed for a couple years now and each of the clients has reported a significant drop in people camping out.  Go figure.

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JE
Jim Elder
Mar 06, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I recommended this once for a viaduct at a college. While I did not follow up on whether or not it worked, that tells you the concept has been around for years (many years). Greg, was there one volume that worked better than others?

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Greg Levorchick
Mar 06, 2017

The volume we set was pretty much at a normal/comfortable level. 

There haven't been any complaints from surrounding tenants.

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