Subscriber Discussion

Another Reminder To Check Your Local Laws Before Recording Audio

MM
Michael Miller
Jan 18, 2018

A local business is in trouble for recording audio/video of employees and customers.  Also, another reason to have a professional install your system as this system was installed by the customer and they have now been arrested. 

I had one other prospect which had Mobotix cameras which he used to listen in on the conversions between employees and customers for "training" purposes.  I told that owner what he was doing was illegal but he didn't care. 

http://www.wfmz.com/news/poconos-coal/police-winery-owners-unlawfully-recorded-customers-employees/687386810

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Cameron Javdani
Jan 18, 2018
Louroe Electronics

Here's a state by state guide we put together for audio laws in all 50 states: https://www.louroe.com/support/audio-the-law-in-your-area/

We have product used in all 50 states. Of note here, Pennsylvania is one of 11 all party consent states nationwide.

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U
Undisclosed #1
Jan 18, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Of note here, Pennsylvania is one of 11 all party consent states nationwide.

Wouldn’t matter if it was a one-party consent state.  They were recording private conversations between others, which means there was zero party consent.

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Cameron Javdani
Jan 18, 2018
Louroe Electronics

Agreed.  I referenced the PA law just for context here.

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Sean Nelson
Jan 18, 2018
Nelly's Security

I dont know the whole store but how ridiculous that they were arrested for this on felony charges. I can understand if they were maliciously using spycams or putting these in private areas, but if the camera was out in the open, cmon.

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Jon Dillabaugh
Jan 20, 2018
Pro Focus LLC

Honestly, I'm glad the law was applied as written. They were invading the privacy of their employees and the public. That is NOT a minor thing.

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U
Undisclosed #3
Jan 20, 2018

I agree with JD... and I don't understand Sean's flippancy related to the violation of privacy rights.

IANAL, but my understanding is that most of these US states that prohibit audio recording in public establishments - without copious signage - do so under the auspices of wire-tapping statutes - which can carry hefty penalties.

the same statutes that protect us from unreasonable search (wiretapping) by over-zealous law enforcement

the same statutes that prevent political opponents from using this same subterfuge to spy on opponents...

...unless you are part of the #resistance in the US - then it's cool.   

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Sean Nelson
Jan 20, 2018
Nelly's Security

Like i said, i dont know the whole story but if it simply equates to some audio / video recording in pubic places of the establishment, then the law went overkill. Especially if the cameras are in plain site. This law is so loosely applied as well. Matter of fact, what do you do when you see video of a guy robbing a store but the store has recorded audio as well but the store owner didnt have any signs. Do you convict the store owner as well? They never do.

Also, their is nothing private about a public place either so i dont really see much privacy being invaded. 

Im not saying they should be reprimanded somehow, but to arrest them with a felony. Cmon.


Again, dont know the whole story, if they were malicously using spy cams in strategic places for the sole purpose of recording conversations, then thats a whole other story.

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MM
Michael Miller
Jan 20, 2018

From another article: 

Police say they could clearly hear conversations that occurred within the winery and outside on the deck. There are no warnings at the winery to advise customers or employees they're being audio or video recorded - making the surreptitious recording illegal.

 

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Jan 18, 2018

Ive asked about this before. One of the newest trends is wireless cameras inside homes that record video and audio. 

A scenario that I recently encountered for the first time is residential where I was let in by a contractor that watches over the house. He had no clue about the cameras and only noticed them because I pointed them out.

Am I right to think that this is illegal because neither of us were made aware of the audio recording?

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Cameron Javdani
Jan 18, 2018
Louroe Electronics

If you subscribe to Ken Kirschenbaum's newsletters' he addressed something similar for audio in residential installs last month.

From his December 28th newsletter:

Seems like the Ring products are popular.  I am going to try a few products in my house.  Professional alarm dealers should be embracing these intended DIY products, selling them with the professional systems, or stand alone if necessary.  

 You have no liability in regard to the audio recording.  You are not doing the recording and you will certainly not the one to abuse that recording.  Signs are meaningless; don't bother.  While recording or intercepting audio is not permitted without consent there still needs to be some level of expectation of privacy.  An intruder has no expectation; at least that's my take on the subject.  As I write this however I am considering an analagous scenario.  Even an intruder can't be mistreated in certain respects.  You can't trap them; torture them; execute them.  Can you violate their rights by capturing their image on video and record audio?  What can you do with that audio and video data without risking liability for violation of civil rights or privacy rights?

 Clearly even an intruder has some rights, especially in California, where he or she may have more rights and definitely more attorneys ready to take up their cause, than the property owner and the alarm dealer.  So you probably can't use the data for your commercial gain or profit. But for securing your property, I think it's a go.

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Brandon Knutson
Jan 18, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Is there a legal distinction between monitoring live audio and recording audio?

A SOC being able to monitor live audio during a workplace violence event would be very helpful to first responders.

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Cameron Javdani
Jan 19, 2018
Louroe Electronics

There is a practical difference in that if you are recording it begs the question what are you doing with the recording.  However before it gets to that point it's recommended that the end user removes expectations of privacy to begin with by providing notification of audio being used on site, whether monitored or recorded.

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U
Undisclosed #1
Jan 20, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Is there a legal distinction between monitoring live audio and recording audio?

Monitoring implies that you are not even a party to the conversation, therefore eavesdropping laws may apply.

JH
Jay Hobdy
Jan 20, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Privacy is expected in a restroom, changing room etc. What about a private office? Can an employee expect privacy in their own office? Elevator? Break room with the door closed? Conference room?

 

Let's say a mom is visiting a local business and needs to breastfeed her baby. The staff says to use the conference room. Everyone forgets about the camera used to monitor sales meetings etc. Now, mom is on YouTube.

 

Was privacy expected?

 

What about the sales guy/woman who is in their office and changes their shirt, etc before their next meeting?

 

My point is, there are too many variables, and I am not a lawyer. As integrators, what do we need to do to protect ourselves? Do we need to put this in our install agreements? Do we need to advise clients they should check with a lawyer before putting up hidden cameras?

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Jon Dillabaugh
Jan 20, 2018
Pro Focus LLC

This is really a simple thing.

1) Ask your attorney what guidance they have for you. 

2) Refer all clients to check with their attorney for their own guidance. 

3) Always recommend that clients inform their staff in writing, with sign offs, that video (and audio, if applicable) recordings are in progress on site. 

4) Always recommend clear signage at all public entrances referring to video (and audio, if applicable) recordings are in progress on site. 

There are really very limited places that you cannot actually install cameras, as long as notice is given. Here in Ohio, stores in the mall have cameras in the changing rooms to prevent theft. There are signs outside the entry to give notice. That is all that they are required to do to be legal. 

The real big issue here is not notifying your employees and public guests. Without notice, they may as well be hidden cams. 

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