AI - On The Camera Or Not?

At no point am I proposing that you should stream to a server in the cloud. In fact I totally agree that a pure cloud recording solution (a'la Ring/Nest) is not a substitute for a local VMS. It's a very different discussion, that probably belongs in a different thread.

Consider a customer that gets 100 cheapo (I recommend Hikua) cameras and a semi-powerful NVIDIA based PC that they place on-site (perhaps someone will release a Jetson based box). As the algos improve, the customer simply updates the PC and reaps the benefits of the improved accuracy and speed. If someone vandalizes a camera, he can replace it with any other cheap camera - perhaps even an Axis one if they feel wealthy. If the user is unhappy with the performance of the software on the PC, pick another vendor, get someone else to do the analysis.

Contrast to another customer that gets 100 expensive AI cameras and a cheap(er) PC. Most of the time, there's nothing going on, and so you have all this power that just sits idle. If one of the cameras break, you need to go get another clever AI camera (at what I presume will cost a premium). In practice there's only one vendor who can upgrade the cameras, if they do (they won't, they'll offer a new camera instead), you'll have to update 100 devices.

All of it is done on the LAN, but the "interpretation" of the video is done by a PC instead of the camera.

The first guy/gal is the wise user who makes his CFO happy, and stays in charge of the system. Gets a raise. Takes the family on a nice trip to Disney world.

The other is the schmuck who got had by a slick dude in a big booth at a tradeshow. Next year, he'll have to explain why they are dealing with 200 false alarms per week, and why they can't switch vendors. He'll be working late, while the wife is flirting with random guys on Tinder.

What I read, is that Instead of H.265, you can get Zipstream (like Mobotix's gave you MxPEG instead of H.264?), but I don't see anything in the chip that makes it dramatically better at working as a gateway to the cloud. Certainly not something that can't be accomplished today.

Isn't "Geared towards enterprise" is just a euphemism for "expensive"?

Just need to add this about Ring...

https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/10/amazon-ring-privacy-concerns/

NOTICE: This comment was moved from an existing discussion: Axis ARTPEC-7 Chip Release Examined

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******, * ***** **** to *** *** ********** because ** ****** * very ******* ***** *** you **** * ****** case *** *** ******* AI ** *** ******.

*** *****:

******** ** ******* ******** that **** *** ********* AI ******* *** * cheap(er) **.

**'** ** ******* ****, while *** **** ** flirting **** ****** **** on ******.

***! * ***'* **** for ** ** ******* the "*** *** **** Left *** *** ****** 100 **** ** *******" :)

* ***** **** *** about *** ******* *********** to ******* *** *** risk ** ***** ***** with ********** **.

*** ********* ******** ** what ********** ** *** get **** ** ** the ****? ******* ******* mentioned ********* *******. ******* one ** *** ******* to ******* *** **** what *** ****** / video ****** ** ********* when ********** *********. *** much ****** **** ***** analytics * ***'* ****.

*** ***** ** *** business ******. ** ********** is **** **** **** and ********* *** **** cameras ** * ****. I **** ********* *********** specializes ** ******* ***** cameras ***, **** ********** I *** ***, **** do *** **** ***** in **** ******** *** they *** ******* ***** cameras ** * *** to ******** ********** **** their *** ********, '*****' competitors. **** * **** business ***********, * *** the ******* ************* ** the ***** ******* **** AI.

*******, * ****** ***** when ** **** '**** enough'. ******, ** *** not **** ***** *** in * ** * years ** ****** **** be **** ** ** 'good ******' *** *** most ****** *** ***** and **** * *** a ******* **** ** embed ** *** ******.

*******, * ****** ***** when ** **** '**** enough'. ******, ** *** not **** ***** *** in * ** * years ** ****** **** be **** ** ** 'good ******' *** *** most ****** *** ***** and **** * *** a ******* **** ** embed ** *** ******.

*****'* ********** * *******-***-***-*** issue **** ** ***********. Similar ** **** *****/****/*****/****** are ****** **** ******** autonomous ****, ***** ***** AI ** ******** *** going ** **** ***** real-world *********** (** *** on **** ** ***** video) ** ******* *** false-positive **** ********* ** improve *********** ** * point ***** ***-***** *** actually ******* ** ********** and *** ** ***.

*** **** ****** * personally ******* ****** *** "human-in-the-loop" ******* ********** ***** is *** *** ** go ***** ****** *******.

*** **** ** *** customer *** ********* ** locations, ** **** ** thousands ** *********, ** just *** ******? *** some ********* ****** * box *** *** ****** makes ** *****, *** some ********* *** ******** OPEX ** ********* ** NVRs ** *** ** more **** *** ******* cost ** *** **********.

***** ** ** *** perfect ************, *** ** the **** ******** ** mobile ******* ******* ***** for ********** ********, *** power ,*** *** **** hardware, ********** ************ ** going ** **** **** the ******. ** ******* shows, * ****** ******** will **** ****** ******* the ******** ******** *****.

*** **** ** *** customer *** ********* ** locations, ** **** ** thousands ** *********, ** just *** ******?

**** ** ****** **** exactly *** ***** **** and **** ****, *** they ***** *** ***** at * ******* ********. Why? ******* *** ********/***** is ** ********* ** the ********, ** *** hardware ******. *** ****** just ***** ** ******* an *****, *** *** be ********* ********. ** updates ** *** ****** is *** ** *** question. ******** *** ******** in *** ****-****** ******* all *** ****.

***** ** ** *** perfect ************

***** (*** ***** **), but * ***** **'* more ******** ** ***** that ***** ** ** architecture/design **** ** ******* for************. *.*. **** ********* makes * *** ** sense ** **** ***********, and ** ***** ** others, ** ** **** to ************ *** ***** ******* ************* ***** sense.

*********, *** **** "**" is *** * ********* feature, *** ** **** slapped ** ********** ******* a ***** ********** ** what *** ************ ** the ******* ** ******** is. *** ** ********* objects, ********, ***** ***? Or ** *** ******** a **** ** **?

*'* ******* **** ********* will *** ******* *** low-spec ******* ** **** on * ******, *** naive ***** **** **** for ** ** **'* being ************ ** * controlled ***********. **** **'* deployed, *** ****** **** claim **** ** *** a * **** ********** riding * ****** ** the ******* ***. ** worse - ** **** fail ** ****** *** assault ******* ** ******* it *** * *********. By **** **'** ** too **** *** *** poor ******.

** ******* *****, * hybrid ******** **** **** likely ******* *** ******** customer *****.

*****.

********* * ***** ** of *** ******* ** say "*** *** ****** brain ** *** **** thinking" **** * ****** doing *** ********** ** a ******* ****. **** allows *** ** ** potentially ******* *** **** varied **** *** *********** placed ** ********* *****.

**** *****'* **** *** well **** *** **** to **** ****** * cell ******* ** ***** metered **********, *** ** mentioned ******, ***** ** no ******* ********* ********.

*’* *** *** ** the ******. *’* ** a ***** ***** *’* so *** ** **** manufacturers *** ******* ** a *****. **** *** have ****** ** *** as ******** **** ****** and *****. *****’* ********** zero ****** *** * fixed ****** ** **** more **** $*** *** and $*** *** * ptz. ** *** ***, it’ll **** *-** ***** and **** ****** ** upgraded ***** **.

*** ***** $*** ** a *** *** **** is **** ***** **** a $*** *** ********* or ******** ******.

******** ***** ********* ***** and ***** ***** ***** like **’* ****.

*** **** ****** **** and ******** *** ***** around ** ******* ** the *** *********** ******* to *** ****. ** the ******* ********** ***** in, **** **** *** bow **** ** **** or ********.

** ** ****, *’* looking ** *********** *** support, *** ***/***** **** to ******* *** **** as * **** **** to **** ****** **** them. ********* ** ***** junk. * ***’* ** after ******* *** ******* as **’* **** **** consuming ** **** ******* replace *** ****** *** toss *** *** *** in *** *****.

*** ***** “*****” **** needs ** ***. **’* all ***** ******** *** greed ** *** *** train. **** **** ***** “platform” *** **** *** back *** **** ** the *** *** ***** make * *** ****** occasionally.

***** *******- ***** *** innovi **** *** ** in *** **** ****** onsite, *** **** ****** are ********, ****** ** to ***** *** ******* which ** **** ***** it ** ********** ******.

**** ** *** **** 30 ****, * **** their ******/************** ******* *** a *** ** ** mins ** ** ** hour ** **** **** time ****** *** ***** (monitoring ****), ******* ***** dead ** *** ***** when ** ***** ** AI. ***** ** *** redundancy ** ***** ***? It’s *** ******** **********, and **** **** ** with **** ** ****** that *** ****** ****** to ************* ******** ********** processing ********* ** *********** growth.

***** *** ****** ******* seems ** **** ** by *****.

*************, **’* ******** ** hire * ********** ** hack *** ****** *** redirect *** ***** ***** away **** ***** ** and *** **** *** of *** *******...**** *** the **** **** **** are *** ****** ** the ***** **** ******.

****** **** ****** ********** in **** ********, **’* more ** ******** *** their ****** ******* ** and **** *** ***** “me ***” ****** ** reinvent *** ***** *** jump ** *** *** bandwagon.

********** **** ****** ********** with ** *********** ****** will *** **** *** create * ****** ******* that ** * ***** NVR *** ** ** one, **** ** ****** a **** # ** cameras ** * ********** price *** **** ***** and **** ****** ****** nonsense **** ***.

*** ***** ** **** "someone ****'* ********", ** the ******** ** ****** written/tested ** **** *** you **** - ********** of ***** ** ** located (** ******, ** site, *****).

*********, *** **** ** transparency ** * ***** based ************ *****'* **** things *** **** ***********. You're ********* *****, *** just **** ** **** patiently *** *** ****** to **** ****, ***** the *** **** ** yelling ** ***.

*** *** ****** ****** of "**" ** *** mix, *** *** ****** stock ** ** *** antacids. **** ***'** ********* is **** *** ******* problems, *** *** ** you ********* ** *** algorithm******** ********?

***** ******* *** ******* players *** *****, *** I ***** **** ****'* taken ********* (* ***'* know ** ****'* **** or ***). *********, * lot ** ****** ***** rather *** ********* ******** from * *** ** a *** ***** **** take * ****** **** the ******* *******, *** small ************* **** **** go *** * *****-**** box.

****** **** * ****** method **** ** **...*** the *** ********* *** :).

****** ******* *** **** impressed **** *** ********, and **'** **** ** learn **** ****, ** when ********* *********, *** "noisy" *** ** ***** near *********** *********, *** it ****** ****. **** not ******* **** ***** people *******.

** **** **** + cameras ** $**** *********** that ** ******* ****** and ***** **** ** a **** **** *****, where ** **** ********** in *** ******** ********.

**** ********** ** ****** by **** *******, ** is *** ******** *** the *** ****. ** you **** ** *** how *** ***** ****** got ** ***** ***** are **** *********** ******** delivered ** ***** ********* you *** **** ** watch ** *******. *** security ******** ***** ******* have ******** **** ********** if **** ***** **** the ***** **** ****, when ******* ** ****** circuit *******. ******* ****** it ** ***** ******* AI. ******** ** ***********, do *** **** *** interest ** *** *******, non *** ******, **** as *** ******* ****** 5?

** *** ****** ******** thing *** *********, *** ran ** ***** **** a ***, *** ****** has **** **** **. Never **** * ******* w/o ********* *******.

*** *****'* *** *** there **** * *****, and ** *** ******* didn't ***** **, ** was *** ********** ** "VCA" ***** **** ******* cameras...id **** ** *** event ******, *** * would ****** ** ** parking *** **** **** with *** ** ***** generated *** *** ****** walking ** **, ** vehicles **** *********/************ ** parking ***** */* ** event *********.

** *****, **** ******* just *** *** *** it, *** ** ****** they **** ** *** " **** ** ***** to **** ** *% of *** ******". ****** and ******* **** ****** up **** **** ******* did ***. ** * stopped ************ **** ******* right ***** *** ****.

* ****** ** *** next **** ** ** we **** *** **** AI **** *** ** the ********, **** ******* methods ** *** *******, and ******* ********* ********, and **** ***** **** be ******* ** ***** a **** ** *** bottom ** ** ***.

******* ** ******* ******* but *** ******* **: onsite **** ******, ******* sending ***** *********, ** camers ********* ** *** cloud ****** ** **** AI *******.

***** ******* *** ******* players *** *****, *** I ***** **** ****'* taken ********* (* ***'* know ** ****'* **** or ***). *********, * lot ** ****** ***** rather *** ********* ******** from * *** ** a *** ***** **** take * ****** **** the ******* *******, *** small ************* **** **** go *** * *****-**** box.

****...

*** ** *** ******** we *** *** ******* players ***:

(*) **** ** ***********. Most ***** **** ** at ***** ******** ****** analytics **** **** **** their ******** *** / front-end. ***** ******* **** not ** ** ********** and ******* * ********* user *********.

(*) *****. ******* ***** players ***** **** **** 1 '*****' *** *** the ******* ** *********, their ******* ***** ** be ************* ****** **** an ********* *** *** add-on *********.

* ** *** ****** to ****** *** *** booth **** *** * think ** ****** ********* smaller ********** *** ***** are ****** ********* ******** to *****.

** *** * **** general *********** ** *** market ** * *****, motivated ** ***

* ***** *** *** AI ** ***, **** to ****** * **** # ** ******* ** a ********** *****

** ***** **** *****.

*'* ******** *** ***** of *** ***** ** the *** ** ********* today ** *** ** video *****. **** **** to **** *'** **** dabbling ** **** *****, but *** ********** ***** is **** * ******-*****. Getting ****** ****** ********, facial ********* ***. ******* in * ********** *********** is *** **** ****. The ******* ** **** the ****** ** ***** deployed ** * ****** of ******** **** *** extremely **** ** **** with. ******** * ******* lot, ** *****, ** the ****, **** * defective **** **** ****** every ** *******.

* **** ** ********* to **** * ******** a **** ** *** "easy" ****, ******* **** it **** ***** *** every ***** ** **** throw ***** **** ****** the ***, **** ********* off ******* *** ** on. **** ***** *'** seen *** **** ** the ******* ** ** overcast *** (**** ******* hard ******* *** *** don't **** ****** **** strong *********** *** *********** etc).

**** *****'* **** **** analytics ** ********* ** useless, ** **** ***** that *** ******** ***** to ** ******** ****** they **** *** **.

** ****** ***** ** the ***********.

*** * **** ** on *** ***** "**" on *** ****? * believe **** ** ********* terminology *** ***** *** industry ********* **. ******* that ******* ** *-* years, *** ********* **** is ******* ** *** edge *** *********. *** AI ********* ** ******** analytics ** ********** ******** elsewhere, *** ** *** edge. *** ********** ** probably ****** ********** *******, but *** ******* ** properly **** ******** ***** AI, ** (** *** as * ** *****), not ***** **** ** the ****. **** ****** analytics *** ***** ***** done ** *** ****.

*** ******* ** ***** that * *** ***** developed ** ****** ******** cloud ***** ******* ** can ** **** ** a ******* **** * RMR ***** *****, **** the ********* ** **** that *** ******* ** building ** ******* '*****' system **** ********* ********* to *****, *** **** replaces ****** ******* **** offline ****. ********* **** is **** *** ********** sites ** ****** **** do *** ********* ***** cloud ********, *** * variety ** *******.


** * *** *********, i'd *** *** ****** is ******** ** * hybrid ******** ** **/** problem. ***** *** ******* tasks **** *** (*** should) ** ********* ** cameras, *** ***** *** computationally ********* ***** **** make ***** ** *** on *** ******-****, ** it * ***** *** PC ** * *****.

**** ******* **** ***** may **? ****, ***'* forget *** * ****** all **** ****** **** about ****** ********, ***** etc, *** **** *** how * ******* ****** search *****... ** ***** to *** *** **** a **** ** *** screen *** **** *** occurrences ** ****** ** it ****, *** ****** should **** * ************* information ***** *** ********** movements ****** ********** ******, a ****** ***. ******* a ******** ** '**** is * ********** ********' for ******* **********, ***** are *** ************* ********* ways ** ********* ** such ***. *** *** can ** ***** ********* on *** *** ** the ****** **** ******** video ****, ** ******** by * ****** *** sent ***** **** *** frames ** * **** of ********. ******, * camera ***** ** ** a ****** ********* *** such ***: ** **** NOT **** ** ***** any *** ****** *** decoding ** ** ******* frame ** *** *** picture ** ** ******* has ** ** *** buffer; ** **** *** have ** ***** *** extra-complex **** ** ***** the *** ** ** already *** *** *** motion ********* ****** **** performs ****** ********. *** it ***** ** ** is ** **** **** metadata ***** **** *** video ****** *** *** VMS ******* **... ****, at *** **** **** nearly *** ** ******* support ****** *********, * rare *** ******* * way ** ******* ***** exactly ****** *** ********, pixel ***********. ****, *** task ** ************ * motion *** **** ********** on ***, ** ***** up **** *** ** decode *** *****, ** run ******* ***** ** motion ******** (***** *** been ******* ***** **** on * ******), ** leads ** ****** ******** specs ** *** ******* and ******* ** ******* to ******* **** **-** cameras ******* ** ****.

*** **** ** ******* feature **** ******* ******* by ** ****** ************? I ***'* ****. *** what * ** **** is, ** ** ****** would've ******** **** ****, VMSes ***** **** ********** used ** ** ******* at ***** ***-***** ***** blob ********* *** ******** of ******* **************, *** of *** ***.

*** * ***'* ***** cameras ****** ** **** complex ************ **** ****. IMO, ******* ** ****** to "*** ** **********" like ****, ** *** that ******* *** *********, or **** ***********, ** camera ************* ****** *********** on ************ * ******** preprocessing **** ***'* ** used ** ******, *** gets ********* ****** **** used ** *********** **** higher-level **/** ********** **** by **** *** *** cloud *********. *** **** everything **** **** **** places: ******* **** ** relatively *********** *** ****** replaceable, ***** ***/***** ********* will *** **** ****** and **** ** *********.

*.*** ******** *** *** metadata ***'** ******* *** :)

*** **** ****** ******* and *****-***** ***** ** help ***. ******* *** knowledge ** *** ****** of *** ****** ****** and *** ****** ** bits **** ** ******** the *****, *** *** have * ****** **** representation ** *** "******" in ** *** *****.

*** ***'* *** *** I-frames, ** ***** ********** is ***** ******* *** does *** ******* ** MV/residuals.

**** ***, *** ***'* need **** ******** (********* the ********* ******* ******** cosine *********).

* *****-***** ****** ******** is ** ****** **** at *** **** ** the *-******. ** *** frame **** ** *****, there's *** * *** going **.

(**. *** ********* **** :) )

*** ******, * ** aware ** **** ****** vectors *** *** **** tried ********* **** *** motion **** **********. *************, they *** *** ***** and ***'* ** **** as-is. *****'* ******* ** using *-****** ***** ***... fresh **** =)

***, ***** *** ****** the **** ** ******* that ****'* ****, *** this ** ******* ** point! ******* ** ******** time *** ******* * weird ***********, *'* ****** prefer ** ******* ** do *** *** *** provide * ******** **** that ** ****** *** more ******* *****. ******** is * *** **** here. *********, *** ********** majority ** ** ******* provide ** *********** **** is ****** ******* ** semi-useless. *** ************* *** have **** * *** more ********* ** ** and *** ** (*** developers) ***** *** ******** that's ****** **** *** camera. **********, ******, ********, you **** ** - they *** **** * power ** ** * calculation ** ********** *****, proper ****** ******* *** other ***** ** *************. But ** ****** ************* are ******* ******** **** part ** **** ** adding **** ******* ****** that **** ** **** while ***** **** ** a **** **** **********, especially ********.

* ******* **'** ** the **** ****: ****** an ***********, ****** *********** cameras **** ** ****** preprocessing ** *** ****, and *** ************, ********* software ************** ** *** other **** ** * way ** **. *** all ***** ******** ** offload ******* **/** ***** to ** ******* ** full **** ** ** to ** * **** ends.

* *******, ***% *****...

** ********, *** **'****** ********* *****, ** you **** ********* **** works **% ** *** time ** **% ** the ********* *******. *** rest ** *** ****, you're ******* **** ********** nonsense ******* ** ***** areas. **'* **** ********* on *** ****** *** firmware - *.*. *** of *** ********** * have **** ********** **** an **** ** ****, and ******* ** ******** the *** ** *** max *** ******* ** a ***** *****, ** will **** **** ** a ***** *** (**** a *** **** *** a ****-***** ********* **** nothing ** ***** **). Another ****** * **** (and ***** ****), *** camera ****** *** *** and *** ***** **** explodes (*******).

*** ***** ** - MPEG4 ** ******** ** do ****** ******* *** kind ** ******** **** we're *****, *** **** some. *** **** **** it ** *** *****, it ***** ** ****** the *********** **** ***, and ** **** ** on *** *** ***** frame - *** **************** **** **'* (*** botched *** **********), ** I **** ***'* ***** we're ***** ** ******************* - ** ** we **, ** **** almost ********* *** ** a ********.

***** *** ***** ** in *** ******* *** actually *** ********. * don't **** *** **** about **, *** * guess ******* **** *** enlighten ** *** **** a ***. ** ** Raspberry ** ****, * have * ******. **** connected, *** ****** ** capable ** ***** ***** 30fps *.*** ******** ** real-time (****** = ******, encoder + **). *** Pi ****** ** **** passing *** *.*** **** around. ** * **** to ** *** **** of ********, *'* **** to *** *** *** frames **** *** ******, and ** *** *.*** encoding ** *** *** CPU. *** ** *****'* have *** ********** ** do **** (** ** fps). *****'* **** ****** control **** *** ** encoders ********* **** *** Pi's ****, *** ***** the **** ******* ** IP *******.

***** *** ****** ********* should **** **** ****** by *** *** ****, but **'** ****** ******** each *****, *** **** of *** *** **** are *** ***** ** camera ************* *** **** very ****** ******** ** meaningful *************** (=>***************=>**** *******).

* **** **** *** say, *** ** **** not *****. *** ******** mentioned **** ****** ** the **** ** ****** and *** **********. *.*** construct ******** ****** *** codecs *** ********* *** processing. ** ** *** that *** *** *****, but *** *********** *** have ***** **** *** scale. ** * ***** If * *** ** re-read **** ****** *** see *.***....* **** ** AI ****/****** ******** ***** tell ** ** **** and **** ** ******* relative ******* ********** *** deem *.*** ** *******.

***** ******* *** *** without ******* ***** ******. /cheers ****.

**, *** **** **** like **** ****** ******* ? ;-)

*.*** ** *** **-***** codec *****, **'* *********** supported *** **** ******** be ********* *** *** next ** *****. * agree **** *** ****** is *** ****** ***** (and **'* ********* *** a ********** *** **), but *********** ** *** the *****.

***'* **** **** ** 3 ***** *** *** if *.*** *** ****** invalid. ***** **** * round ** ****.

**** ********** ** ****** assume **** *** ** cameras *** ***** ** break. * **** ************ will *** **** **** a **** *** ******* product **** ******** ******* issue *** ** ***** average ********, ** ******** they **** **** ***** cameras *** ** ******* to ******* ** *** best ** ***** *********. Also ******** **** ** the ** ** ******* Idle ***** ******* **** of *** **** ** you ****, **** *** the ******** ******** ********* correctly ** *** **********? do **** ****** **** a **** *** **, or **** **** **** something **** *** *** need ******* ** ******* cool, *** *** ******** was *****. ***** ** certainly * ****** *** every ******* *** *****. but ** **** ******** is ***** ** **** of ** **** **** should ** ***** ** the **** **** ******** technology **** *** (**** actually ***** *** ********* correctly) ***** ** * premium ****, *** **** function **** **** **** end ******* ********* *** data ********** ** ** its ** *** **** or ** ** ******** server.

*'* *** ******** **** they're ***** ** *****. I'm ****** **** ** you *** ** "**" camera *****, **** **** chip-set *** ************, ******* are **** *-* ***** from ***, ** **** be ********** ********. ** some ****** ****'* ****.

**** *********** ** **** you *** * ****** camera ******* *** ***** AI ************ *** ******* invest ** ******** ** the ********* ****. ***** the ********** *** ***** to *******, *** ****** will **** ****, *** can ******* ****** *** software ** *** ** with ******/******* ************ ** what *** *** **** today. ** *** **********, 4 ***** **** ***, you **** ** **** to *** ******, ****** and **** ******** ******* just ******* *** ********** improve. ***, *** ***** argue **** ************ * is ***** ** **** updating *** ******** ** the ******, *** *** we ** **** ** that? ** ***** ** told **** **** *****-***** AI ****** **** **** is ********** ******** ** 2021, *** ***'* ******** support *** *** *****.

*** ** ******, **** is ***** ** *** most ****** *** ******* use-cases - ***** *** def. ********* ***** **-****** is ** *********** ********, even ** ** ** outdated * ***** **** now.