Subscriber Discussion

A UL Listed Fire Alarm Receiver Needed

U
Undisclosed #1
Aug 09, 2016

I have a large university that will require proprietary UL listed monitoring of fire alarms (about 300 buildings). Here are four that I am familiar with (Prices range from $25-75K) :

  1. Keltron LS700
  2. Bosch D6600
  3. DSC SG-System 4 Virtual Receiver
  4. Silent Knight VisorAlarm Plus (actually Honeywell)

These guys have been around in one form or another for years.

  1. What has been your experience with these products?
  2. Are there any others I should check out?
  3. Which are more likely to be less problematic to integrate with common security platforms (Genetec, Lenel, Software House, etc)
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Ethan Ace
Aug 09, 2016

Funny enough, today I was just recalling a project in which I proposed a receiver integration to Genetec.

In my past we sold the D6600 and the VisorAlarm. I don't have personal hands on with either but from what I remember talking to techs, the VisorAlarm was much easier to work with. I could probably ask around tomorrow and get some opinions.

Is the university going to be totally proprietary monitoring (they dispatch) or will this be secondary and a central station will still be monitoring? There's a secondary monitoring version of the VisorAlarm which is only a few thousand bucks if I remember correctly.

U
Undisclosed #1
Aug 09, 2016

Totally proprietary and they will be the primary monitoring facility. So cannot go with something that is not listed UL 864. I guess that's what jacks up the cost so much.

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Brian Rhodes
Aug 09, 2016
IPVMU Certified

Does the client hold/ have access to a fire alarm dealer status? Edwards?

They might have additional options for local monitoring based on the type of system they use.

U
Undisclosed #1
Aug 09, 2016

No. Its a public university. But they are sophisticated users with 5 people taking care of the various security systems.

U
Undisclosed #1
Aug 09, 2016

No they do not. Proprietary Central Station only. Still must require UL 864

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Tyler Blake
Aug 09, 2016
BCI Integrated Solutions

How is everything connected? What sort of dialers are you using? If you are going to have that many buildings and if they are all running on phone lines I would probably suggest going the AES wireless mesh route with AES receivers. I would still probably recommend that route over IP signals. You certainly don't want to go supervised cell route due to monthly recurring cost that will eat your RMR margins.

Also, can I ask why you have linked to a system 4 versus a smaller model and just adding line cards. That is major overkill for 300 panels/buildings.

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Tyler Blake
Aug 09, 2016
BCI Integrated Solutions

Also,

Following up on this, why aren't you just going the cloud/hybrid route from a central station automation software provider. It's probably going to be cheaper anyway for the UL certification and the new UL allows for this. I know Bold, Dice, and IBS all have cloud platforms now. I would fully assume MAS/Microkey do as well. It would only cost the end user like $1 to a couple bucks per month to do it this route. Just reach out to Bold or someone and they can probably get you a reseller agreement to take a cut.

I would assume a university that size would already have the backup internet connections etc. so you wouldn't have a lot of added infrastructure cost. All you need to do is set up VPN's and repoint the panels.

U
Undisclosed #1
Aug 09, 2016

In the past, I tended to shy away from cloud services, but I am open to the concept. I have left VMs with all those providers suggested. Lets see how long it take them to call back. I also wonder why i cannot seem to reach anyone.

Also there is a lot more to this than I let on. Many of the buildings do not have communicators. They use contact outputs to signal an existing system that was UL listed specifically for this institution. Moreover, there is a significant cost ($600) per IP connection. But these costs remain with any solution we provide.

So, how would you suggest this roll out? Keep in mind that the University PD is the central station where all alarms are monitored and they want to keep it that way.

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #2
Aug 09, 2016

Keep in mind that the University PD is the central station where all alarms are monitored and they want to keep it that way.

Surprised the Risk Management group at the University (or the Loss Control Consultant from the insurance company) have not suggested the University - at a minimum - have a back-up for liability reasons. Putting all of that risk on the PD would seem unwise.

Avatar
Ethan Ace
Aug 09, 2016

There are multiple universities near me where this is the case. It was actually the first place I saw a central station receiver. I think it's fairly common in campuses, actually.

(1)
UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #2
Aug 09, 2016

Agreed. And have also seen it, yet fail to understand how it continues to be so commonplace that campus PD's operate without back-up.

U
Undisclosed #1
Aug 09, 2016

"...commonplace that campus PD's operate without back-up."

I have a lot of experience in higher education and I would say you are generally accurate; however, that is changing. Some universities use a central station and their receivers are secondary so its difficult to tell in a lot of cases.

(1)
U
Undisclosed #1
Aug 09, 2016

A university police department is different than a municipal agency. Such organizations contain both elements of security and law enforcement. As to backups, they include an emergency operations site and redundant systems (servers, networks, storage, etc). If the alarms are not acknowledged, others are also notified. In addition, there are at least two professionally trained and State certified operators on duty at any given time. The space is hardened with its own HVAC 8 hour UPS and generator, bullet resistant glass, concrete filled block walls and access controls. The center even has its own Restroom and break area so operators need not leave the space during their shift. If all hell breaks loose, they have a procedure in place to evacuate to the alternate EOC (off campus).

What else would you suggest?

U
Undisclosed #1
Aug 10, 2016

Checked on one of the companies (IBS) you noted. I must admit, I was impressed. Doing a web pitch next week.

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Tyler Blake
Aug 10, 2016
BCI Integrated Solutions

If they are planning on integrating video with it Bold has a pretty good video alarm product integrated with their monitoring suite. You can connect to the recorders via tcp/ip or just email out the alarms and the software will take it in and pop it for operators.

U
Undisclosed #1
Aug 10, 2016

Good to know. I will discuss it with them next week. With this specific client, video is not in the mix. Just need the UL fire.

U
Undisclosed #1
Aug 09, 2016

Some FAPs have dialers that are not used. All FAPs have 4 relay outputs which are monitored using the aforementioned system. This very special system uses Data Collection Panels with I/O points that are connected to a network controller via RS485. The controller is then connected to the campus IT network. All of this will no longer be supported in a few years by the manufacturer and it is the ONLY system of its type anywhere (i checked) that is UL listed 864 and receives both fire and security and does access control. It is inspected every year by the state who has actual photos that he compares to any new panels to to make sure the same components are used. If a capacitor, terminal, transformer, resistor or any other component is different, he will reject it and not approve an occupancy certification.

I should mention that i am not an integrator, but an engineer. I am writing the contract docs to get the integrator on board after a bid process.

Avatar
Tyler Blake
Aug 09, 2016
BCI Integrated Solutions

I would say get supervised cell communicators and transmit over that. I wouldn't go with IP for Fire but that is just my experience unless everything is going to be local.

If you're networking everything local, we've had good luck with this https://www.gamewell-fci.com/CatalogDocuments/9020-0647.pdf which is UL 864 certified as an all in one work station. You can also network multiple focal point workstations together. Here's a larger brochure/sales lit https://www.gamewell-fci.com/en-US/salesandsupport/importlist/focalpoint_brochure.pdf They do also make a mobile/tablet version.

U
Undisclosed #1
Aug 09, 2016

I wouldn't go with IP for Fire but that is just my experience unless everything is going to be local.

Everything is indeed local. You are not the only one that has said that. POTS lines are becoming scarce these days though and cost a lot to get installed in a VOIP environment. I am checking into the network reliability to find out their published MTBFs. I know there are analog to IP converters for this, but again, they are not UL approved. I also get concerned when I talk to IT guys about power backup. UL requires 8 hours UPS without generator and 4 hours with generator, while IT guys think 15 minutes.

What are your other objections to using IP?

Thanks for the reminder about Gamewell. That company's been around for longer than i can remember... which is probably the reason I forgot about them.

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Ethan Ace
Aug 09, 2016

Funny thing is: Gamewell at this point is a Honeywell brand, so they're selling the VisorAlarm, as well.

The Network setup is similar to Notifier Net (also Honeywell). I forgot about that one.

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Ethan Ace
Aug 09, 2016

Undisclosed, for what it's worth the couple of people I talked to today much preferred the VisorAlarm to Radionics. They said it was easier to work with, though the actual techs who have touched them weren't available for details.

As far as integrating with VMS/Access systems, I don't know that you'll find a lot of readymade integrations. I think Software House has a couple, but others don't. Years ago when I worked for an integrator, I asked Genetec's professional services group if we could integrate the VisorAlarm and they said it was about a week's integration work at the time. The serial data is pretty well documented (here, for example).

U
Undisclosed #1
Aug 09, 2016

Thanks Ethan. Software House and Lenel have both had integrations to Radionics (now Bosch i think) since the turn of the century, but only as secondary monitoring. This integration is a design assumption I am making now. There will be some form of UL listed receiver with a serial port connection to the access control/alarm monitoring system. The latter will provide mapping, incident reporting, push notifications, emails, etc, etc, stuff that the receiver cannot do.

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Ethan Ace
Aug 09, 2016

That's how I proposed it when we were looking at it. Basically, we intended to still have the receiver/printer/monitor in the room, but for the most part the VMS would be used to monitor it.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Aug 09, 2016

Sounds like Monitor Dynamics!

You can also review FM which is sometimes easier to manage for a fire only central station.

It changes the requirements for battery and equipment, but it's worth a shot.

I would bring in a consultant like Hughes and Associates. There is a lot to consider besides just the receiving gear and software.

U
Undisclosed #1
Aug 09, 2016

"Sounds like Monitor Dynamics!"

Nope and I cannot tell you who. Suffice to say that you would recognize the name, but not the system as it is deployed .

"You can also review FM which is sometimes easier to manage for a fire only central station."

The State AHJ has required compliance with NFPA 72 which requires listings, but the AHJ specifically called out UL 864 for the receiving equipment.

"I would bring in a consultant like Hughes and Associates. There is a lot to consider besides just the receiving gear and software."

I know of H & A but the cost is out of scope. You bet there is a lot to consider, but this is discussion is about a specific item.

Avatar
Ethan Ace
Aug 09, 2016

Thinking about this more and talking to a NICET IV friend about it, I actually think the IP receiver (whichever, I only have experience with the VisorAlarm) is the absolutely way to go in this case. Here's why:

1. A lot of the IP dialers have multiple inputs, which would allow you to essentially just remove the contact inputs that you're using now and land them on the dialer for fire, trouble, supervisory, etc. If that's all that's needed, it's nearly universal in what panels you can support.

2. However, if you need point ID support, you'll get multiple format support from the receiver. So for example the VisorAlarm will support Ademco, Radionics, Sur-gard, and I think more. That's going to cover a whole lot of the industry for point ID.

3. IP dialers have been in use for years now and they're fairly cheap and reliable. They're fully supervised, so if the network connection goes down, you'll know. I think the it's only something like 30 or 60 seconds before the receiver must report trouble according to code. The company I used to work for switched to mostly IP dialers in something like 2007.

4. By contrast, a proprietary fire network (Notifier Net or Gamewell's FocalPoint) has to be backed up to meet UL864, which if I remember correctly (it's been a few years) means 24 hour UPS. I ran into this in a large fire project back then which required a UL864 UPS to the tune of about $7000 unexpected dollars...

The fact that you can send communicator signal over the internet and not require the same backup is kind of bizarre, but that's how it's written.

The short version is, I just don't think any other method is going to scale very well at all on a 300+ building fire system. The receiver is going to be most flexible and likely lowest cost and meet the goal of the project.

(1)
U
Undisclosed #1
Aug 10, 2016

Thanks Ethan. My response follows your item numbers.

  1. Yes. When the system was first installed (1983) only alarm and system trouble were monitored. Later two additional alarm events were added (supervisory and fire suppression activation) which is where we are now. I seem to recall however, that NFPA 72 now requires monitoring of all points uniquely. If that is confirmed, that would translate into 10s of thousands of points. Thats ok; in fact that's a good thing since all of the systems are addressable.
  2. Agreed. Point ID will also permit quicker response to the problem area (as you know)
  3. IP dialers seem the way to go, but a number of integrators I have talked to have cautioned against it. They cite that the viability of an IP connection is questionable. There are too many owner-supplied components in an IP network and most owners don't think in alarm terms. POTS lines on the otherhand are simple, powered by the central office and are a well known. Some suggest a Cellular transmiter, but that would add considerable to the TCO. Anyway, how can you test the viability of a network connection?
  4. You may be right. What I recall is 8 hours (without Generator) and 4 hours with generator. I am in the process of reviewing just that issue. Dont forget that we are also talking about NFPA 72.

More investigation will tell. I am intrigued by the Cloud solution from IBS. They were clear that all the central station UL requirements would be their responsibility. The client would have to supply standard workstations with full client running on them, dual internet connections, backup power and a secured space, but its pretty basic and doable stuff.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Aug 09, 2016

I have found ACS products woefully unsatisfactory for local monitoring if 300 fire accounts.

Its dealing with missing timer tests, systems on test, swinger alarms, recurring troubles reported with diaper tests, multiple call lists,....those cause the nightmare.

U
Undisclosed #1
Aug 10, 2016

By "ACS" I assume you mean Access Control Systems products? If your a university , all that stuff you noted is governed and controlled by the System Admin. They are not separate accounts per say. In fact, fire alarms are a bit easier because they all have the same response. Typically ACS's (at least the systems I design) can do everything you noted and a lot more... but since i have little experience with central station platforms, I cannot attest to the superiority of one over the other. What is a diaper test?

U
Undisclosed #4
Aug 10, 2016
IPVMU Certified

What is a diaper test?

dialer

U
Undisclosed #1
Aug 10, 2016

Damn that spell check....

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John Bazyk
Aug 10, 2016
Command Corporation • IPVMU Certified

I have a D6600 I think its new.

U
Undisclosed #1
Aug 10, 2016

Is that an offer to sell it?

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John Bazyk
Aug 10, 2016
Command Corporation • IPVMU Certified

Yes, funny thing is, we have had a couple of other people reachout asking about it this week. It's been here for years as a backup and have never needed it! Looking to sell it now.

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John Bazyk
Aug 10, 2016
Command Corporation • IPVMU Certified

It's a complete system with line cards. Never used.

U
Undisclosed #4
Aug 11, 2016
IPVMU Certified

Fresh diaper as well, I assume? ;)

U
Undisclosed #1
Aug 10, 2016

John H. Can I ask him the price?

Avatar
Ethan Ace
Aug 10, 2016

If you click the envelope icon next to his name you can send a direct message.

U
Undisclosed #1
Aug 10, 2016

Thanks. Totally missed it.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Aug 10, 2016

I have a friend with a used one, almost new he will sell for little $$$

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