Subscriber Discussion

A Real Debate: Practical Working Knowledge VS. Monolithic "Certifications"

RS
Robert Shih
Feb 12, 2018
Independent

It seems that there's a crux to the arguments and attacks that have arose here lately between the verbose outsider and our plucky editor-in-chief.

Let me detail this more specifically:

Practical working knowledge of modern evolving systems not necessarily covered by a regulatory body (or one that has not caught up to all current technology or is unaware of existing standards set by a different industry) versus the proprietary and progress averse regulatory bodies that determine who is "certified."

Is "legitimacy" only determined by the alphabet soup of acronyms that lord over fees and antiquated standards? Is there no room for more flexible models of knowledge and continued education to exist?

Honovich has stated CLEARLY that he does not care about ANSI certifications of his courses and yet Zwirn considers the snub as a non-answer...(rather than a negative one?)

Regardless, while there are laws and these regulatory bodies regularly find their way into influencing these laws (whether for legitimate reasons or for monetary gain), are these standards truly "relevant" in the practical sense? Is an upheaval necessary in the industry? Where does the authority and responsibility to certify lie?

Perhaps rather than debating knowledge for fields that the two individuals in question have very little intersect in, why not debate something that is actually up for debate. Do we need to answer to the suit and tie committee or do the jeans and work-boots need to be the ones making the rules? Git'er done or CYA with a mountain of paperwork? Who truly defines this industry?

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JH
John Honovich
Feb 13, 2018
IPVM

Is "legitimacy" only determined by the alphabet soup of acronyms that lord over fees and antiquated standards?

99% of people in this industry do not care about certifications. Related, 99% of people in an industry over 10 years do not care about what certifications they have.

There are exceptions over time and in certain places where certifications can provide true signaling value of expertise but, in video surveillance, there is nothing like that previously nor today.

Zwirn is free to be happy about his various certifications but most adults will just shrug shoulders and move on doing their own real work.

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UE
Undisclosed End User #1
Feb 13, 2018

Certifications are like a University degree, they teach you the theory and framework but that doesn't mean you know how to put it into practice within a real-world environment when conditions aren't "text-book". 

There's a reason why some certifications accept +10yrs as practial experience vs theoretical knowledge.

Each has it's place, but you need a problem solved, I'd take Jonny-college grad with creativity, commitment and know-how any day.

FYI - Was top of my class in college, university scholarship with double concentration and 12yrs practical experience. I know which taught me more and who I'd choose to rely on.

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U
Undisclosed #4
Feb 19, 2018

Certifications are also revenue, just sayin.

 

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #2
Feb 13, 2018

Certifications, qualifications, standards, codes, rules, regulations, criteria, etc... are all 'baselines", meaning they define the bare minimum required to achieve some form of "compliance".

Think about it though;

A College Degree is a baseline. Compliance is achieved when you earn your diploma. Does this guarantee the person demonstrating compliance with their diploma is the most qualified and smartest person in his field? No.

PCI Compliance in retail is the bare minimum acceptable amount of network security the Payment Card Industry is willing to accept. This standard is set in a effort to attempt to stem the tide of cardholder data breaches. Is it the best security? Obviously not. Does it guarantee security? Definitely not. Is it the best security a retailer could implement. Absolutely not.

ONVIF is a standard. It defines the baseline for interoperability between certain types of devices. Does being ONVIF compliant mean that this is the best interoperability these two devices could possibly have? It's hard to actually read (or type) that last sentence and not laugh, right? The answer of course is a definite no.

So let's switch gears now;

Does having an ANSI compliant training program ensure that the content is the best and the most useful? Does it mean the person going through the program would find it more relevant to his job than one that is not? Hardly. It may ensure certain baselines are met, but typically those baselines will be antiquated. 

Does having an IMA, REL, DOP after your name ensure you are the smartest guy in the room? Actually, all it does is ensure you have met the lowest common denominator of others with the same letters. It does not "qualify" your knowledge or skills against others who might have real world and likely more useful experience.

But see, that is the way the world works. We like to put things in neat little boxes we can measure, even if the measurement means nothing.

Many of us here might apply for a job without any of those letters after our name, some of us might not even have the diploma to attach to our name, and while we might be the absolute best at what we do, the world (and HR managers) will tend to only take in the ones with the diplomas regardless of experience. The why is easy ... it's fear, lack of knowledge in general, and CYA, but it is in no way the best measure.

Undisclosed Member, IPVM

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RS
Robert Shih
Feb 19, 2018
Independent

So maybe this should be more of a poll where we discuss HOW outdated the current ANSI standards are?

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U
Undisclosed #3
Feb 13, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Certs have some, but limited value as a first order filter.

In the same way that an advanced degree in Music Theory might help you get an interview for an opening with a classical ensemble,  but no one in their right mind would ever hire you without hearing you play.

 

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RS
Robert Shih
Feb 13, 2018
Independent

The question I pose is whether or not these existing organizations and certifications are at all in touch with the state of the industry and the needs of the occupation now? Are they too far detached and are they out of touch or are they still what is relevant for our field today?

CR
Chad Rohde
Feb 19, 2018

I don't know what the certifications of today consist of, but I lost all respect for them when I got a few from CompTIA years ago. Back then, (15 years or so) I just went over a few sample tests. When I took the actual test, I new the answers without even reading the whole question.

I think certifications show that the person is serious in wanting to pursue and advance in a certain industry. But hands on experience wins every time if I had to choose between the two.

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U
Undisclosed #3
Feb 19, 2018
IPVMU Certified
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Avatar
Ari Erenthal
Feb 20, 2018
Chesapeake & Midlantic

Certification is a great way to quickly learn about a subject, but cannot replace the gut-level familiarity you get with experience. 

Field experience is a great way to learn tricks and methods that never make it into the books, but cannot replace the theoretical understanding that formal study gives you. 

Ideally, I'd rather hire a candidate with both. If that's not an option, I'd judge the individual candidate. I've known rock stars with paper certifications and not a day in the field, I've known mad scientists with loads of experience and not a single CEU, I'e known credentialed idiots, and I've known morons with decades of field experience yet struggle with simple tasks. 

DW
Dale White
Feb 21, 2018

As with many aspects of professional life, beginnings are important.  In the beginning, certifications or sanctioned qualifications are conceived to protect the consumer of a product or service.  This is usually precipitated by previous bad activity of people who have provided substandard services.

The governing body (usually made up of the practitioners) establishes the minimum criteria, test centers, proctors, training, publications, memberships, continued training (in case you forgot), seminars, sample testing, pre-testing, CEUs for trainers & trainees, monthly magazine, re-certification, etc., etc.  An entire ecosystem is created around a perceived professional preeminence.  Most certifications today are attained, not to gain the knowledge, but because the “cabal” demands it.

This is all well and good until there is more emphasis on creating and sustaining the “community” ($) than the actual standards you’re trying to establish.  I am certain there were degrees, certifications, and standards, lo an entire society for structural engineering and metallurgy in 1979, but engines still fell off the DC-10.

Many organizations rely on strict rules for selecting people based on these inferred qualifications and they miss rock stars as a result.  Granted, you don’t want a GP operating on your child but we aren’t talking brain surgery here.

Of course, life safety considerations are always weighted to a qualified person.  Otherwise, just hire good people.  It’s 80% gut instinct.  Most of us have hired a knucklehead before.  Certifications or not!

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #5
Nov 14, 2019

Just remember that 1/3 of all college graduates, doctors, lawyers, etc. were in the bottom third of their class.

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U
Undisclosed #6
Nov 16, 2019

And 1/3rd of players in the NBA are in the bottom third of the league, right?

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