Subscriber Discussion

How To Explain The Difference Vs A $600 Ebay Special?

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Dec 28, 2016

How do you explain the difference between a $600 eBay special 8 cameras and DVR to a potential customer? They thought I was ripping them off when I told them the price per camera.

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Jon Dillabaugh
Dec 28, 2016
Pro Focus LLC

If you can't describe the differences, maybe you are ripping them off in a way. If you can't justify the difference, how could you expect them to? My point being, if you can't differentiate your offering from theirs, you can't expect them to pay your premium. 

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Dec 28, 2016

I have tried to explain the difference, then I usually leave it with you get what you pay for, after spending the time explaining the difference. A lot of people just see the $$. The problem is always with the Small Business owner.

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JH
John Honovich
Dec 28, 2016
IPVM

#1, what were you proposing as an alternative? With that, we can better offer recommendations on differences.

Some general things that kits often lack:

  • no varifocal so harder to get the right shots / coverage
  • lower resolution so possibly less details
  • not as good IR range either shorter range or more blooming from overexposure
  • various software issues / limitations, depending on what is being offered

So if you have any more details about what you proposed and what they looked at, we can help more.

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Michael Silva
Dec 28, 2016
Silva Consultants

All of things that John mentioned are good. When asked this same question, I always say that one of the big differences between a cheap camera and a more expensive one is their ability to handle changing lighting conditions. If you have a well-lit scene with static lighting conditions, its hard to tell the difference, but if you are viewing an outdoor scene where you have to deal with sunlight, headlights, glare off of rain or fog, etc., the difference between cameras is very apparent.

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Joseph Parker
Dec 28, 2016

I love these!  

1.  I won't install a retail system.  Ever.  

2.  Warranty.  Even if terms are similar, go ahead and try swapping out the hard drive or camera with your retail manufacturer.  The last one I did about 2 years ago took 4 hours, after which I gave up and bought a new one for the client.  

3.  Speaking of hard drives, the one that comes with the kit is guaranteed to be undersized, and garbage.  

4.  Ease of Use.  The kit is virtually guaranteed to difficult to configure and poorly supported.

5.  Cabling.  Even IP kits tend to require some brand specific nonsense which means tons of cable coiled somewhere, cheap cable likely to fail, and limitations on what you can use for replacement.

6.  Cameras.  See Michael's post.

7.  Customization.  I rarely use varifocal, but I do tailor ever job with right camera body, focal length, and even image size.   Have fun with your 8 4mm bullets.

If I had more time I would give the client a $50 Coby tablet and IPAD.   It's a pretty decent comparison.  Nobody that can afford an IPAD would ever buy the Coby.  

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Mike Dotson
Dec 28, 2016
Formerly of Seneca • IPVMU Certified

Not too long ago I was asked to evaluate a 'low cost' system in the lab that would use normal IP cameras.

I totally agree with your points #3 and #4.

To add a couple more...

A. The performance of the system will not be what they say it will do...and they do not have a way in the system to even let you see any health metrics.

B. Camera support will be very limited.  This becomes a very 'binary' result...it either works..or it doesn't.

I punted that system.

U
Undisclosed #2
Dec 28, 2016
IPVMU Certified
  1. Buy a Hikvision $150 DVR.  
  2. Let your customers try to use it.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Dec 28, 2016

I spec Exacq, I will not sink that low and Spec HikVision NVR's.

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Joseph Parker
Dec 28, 2016

A $150 Hik is pure luxury compared to some of the other retail brands out there.

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U
Undisclosed #2
Dec 28, 2016
IPVMU Certified

Don't spec it, just let them try to use it.  

Then let them try Exacq.

Unless they have used Hik before, there is little chance of them finding an event and exporting a video before getting seriously frustrated.

I switched from a 'real' VMS to a Chinese NVR.  I figured it might be missing some features, but I had no idea how bad it was til I started really trying to use it:

My Top 5 Dahua Interface Gripes

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Jon Dillabaugh
Dec 28, 2016
Pro Focus LLC

Don't spec it, just let them try to use it.

Then let them try Exacq.

Then let them try DW Spectrum...

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Joseph Parker
Dec 28, 2016

Exactly!  For ease of use there's nothing better.  Exacq is still a great choice for complex projects though.

U
Undisclosed #2
Dec 29, 2016
IPVMU Certified

Then let them try DW Spectrum...

Sure, that too.

Its a switch and bait ;)

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Dec 28, 2016

Another thing that could be said is you sell and service only products that have stood up to the standards you hold. And to be able to sell and service those products you have found that it's just not possible to do a good job with equipment that inexpensive. For example, if a camera fails is the eBay person going swing on by with their ladder and replace the camera? Obviously not but you probably are (what or if you charge is another matter) so you see it's all about the value you are adding.

There are some guys that will do the wire part and even hang the cameras knowing they will likely get called back and eventually sell a decent system so that's an option as well. Some folks would not want to do that as the likely hood of doing some free stuff is pretty high, or just not worth the haggling. I mean lets face it one you run the wire and hang the cameras and become their buddy, the camera guy they will just forget they got the cameras from wherever.

I'm also pretty sure the DIY and or low cost system has been discussed in great detail here over the years so you could probably search and find quite a few things others have said to over come these customer objections.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Dec 28, 2016

I would love to see IPVM perform a shootout and comparison of the $600 ebay specials and professional gear. Including quality UI ect... 

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Chris Lanier
Dec 28, 2016

All excellent points! 2 similar image points over the years that have resonated with some dealers I've interacted with when wrestling with end user shopping:

1) These days pretty much all camera images look good at 3pm. Challenge the end user with your feature sets that will deliver usable video at 3am. A time that separates commercial cameras from the DIY ones. Most perceive the majority of crime is committed under the cover of dark.

2) Buy any one of the cameras online with similar specs (many still show 480-600TVL still). Fire that one and your best one and simulate WDR type examples. As one dealer put it- "It's amazing how my end user's budget magically changes when they see the image they WANT."

Warranty vs Actual Service- Another possible angle might be to offer a period of free service should any hiccup occur. While warranties may be similar, eBay or Best Buy won't be offering that service pledge.

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RR
Richard Ramsowr
Dec 28, 2016

First off, have a fun filled and safe new years...

You have one real task before you, the easy answer would be to find better clients but that's not really an answer is it.

One can always ask the short sided client if he or she would trust such a hardware solution if their mom was involved but that's not really an answer either is it.

The thing that always did the trick for me was the following and to this day it still works when applied correctly. First off when you're dealing with a client one has to put yourself correctly into the picture. You're never just a salesperson your either a system's designer or a system's consultant or in my case both. As such your closing statement after the client has brought up the subject of cost is to say "if you allow our design solution to go forward, I would be willing to spend the night in your facility, on the other hand, should you elect to go with off the shelve hardware then I would not be willing to spend a single hour let alone a night in your facility.  

Such clients, they're really more like customers as opposed to being a real client, do not like to be told that they can't have something. 

 

Just a through...

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Ricardo Souza
Dec 28, 2016
Motorola Solutions • IPVMU Certified

All those tips provided by the illustrious members above add great value to your proposal.

I would also include examples with picture of objects/ppl at x distance, etc.  Also how your solution would be better to search video, find evidence, etc...

Showing with examples how your solution is way better than simply COTS stuff.

 
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Simone de Titta
Dec 28, 2016

In my town (Genoa, Italy) there is a simple nice proverb:

"You're not that rich to buy cheap things.."..

Actually I suppose there's something similar everywhere in the world, not only in Genoa.. And there must be a reason......;)

I fully agree with all the "differences" indicated by John and the other members.
I may also add for example the different materials used: all out of focus in summer, magically... How much does it cost for each change of season to reconfigure the focus?.... Reconfigure the focus?.. But.... where's the focus configuration???....

Basically, as usual, it depends on the needed application. Let's even assume not to consider the random probability mentioned by Mike Dotson's point B (you know Mike, if someone feels lucky...), I often hear from several customers "well, but if you are not in an outdoor scenario, if you are not in need of high quality, if you just need to save for no longer than 1 hour, if you just care about having something if it happens something, ... that's enough...".. Well, actually in that case I would even say that 600$ is quite expensive price for that aim! I mean, just put something fake as deterrent (example) and you have more or less the same practical results for less than 100$........;)

Actually the comment I agree more at all is the one just suggesting "ok, let them go for it"... If someone still needs to be adviced about the differences between a car and a bicycle, I think they just "deserve" to try it.....

In this market by now I think the only one "antidote" against the price-based offer is to keep calm and do the same which Virgilio suggested to Dante Alighieri (Hell, III-51): "non ragioniam di lor, ma guarda e passa" (Let us not speak of them, but just look and pass)....

Cheers and happy new year to all!
Simone

JH
Jay Hobdy
Dec 29, 2016
IPVMU Certified

We use Costco as an example, and ask the client if they think Costco uses the kits they sell in the store...

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Kyle Folger
Jan 02, 2017
IPVMU Certified

That's not always a good argument though. The Costco gas station near me just put in Axis cameras, but inside the store they recently put in Speco cameras. At that point they could install their own cameras they sell and have good results.

i did install a Costco Q-See analog HD kit kit that was really a Dahua since it was really cheap. It worked well since it was a residential install and was changing out an existing system that was worse than the Dahua. I refused to use any of the premolded cable though. The customer was happy and the system still works.

The limited lens options aren't really a problem in most residential. I din't like the form factor they included in the kit but I justified it because it looked better than what had previously been installed.

JS
Jeff Sandine
Jan 02, 2017
RadiusVision

I usually tell prospects right up front about their low cost DIY options as they are going to find out anyway, better that I be the one to bring this to their attention.

Here's what I tell prospects:

Costco sells a Lorex (owned by FLIR) 32 channel IP camera system, that includes 24 4mp bullet IR cameras, with 8TB NVR, for $2500.

The Lorex/Costco system is a lot for the $, image quality is similar to top of the line cameras like AXIS. However, some of the downsides to these type of low price systems are: the software/user experience, service and support are often less than ideal and as a DIY'er, you're on your own. 

I explain that a similar spec'd Exacq NVR with 24 AXIS bullet IR cameras from us would be $25,000+.

I explain that our top of the line systems can do just about anything they might have in mind, and then some, with service and support that is as good as it gets. I tell them about systems like Avigilon that offer extremely useful features such as self learning video analytics that really work and won't be found with the low price biz model products.

Just depends on your expectations, requirements and budget.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #4
Jan 02, 2017

I'm guessing that 'potential' customer did  not jump to buy the $25k+ system from you!? Just a hunch, but it seems like you basically gave them 2 choices, something reasonably priced w/o every bell and whistle that will probably do the job just fine (from somebody else) and something with everything imaginable that they probably won't miss (from you) for over 10x that price. That's major sticker shock and 2 opposite ends of the spectrum. Why not start out with and actually answer the initial question of the $600 system?! You completely disregard that and immediately jump up to $2500 and then that's still nothing anyone would settle for (insult) so let's hit him over the head with $25k plus!? This is a great topic, something that comes up all the time but this is obviously not the way to handle it. There are those of us new to surveillance who would really benefit from having a better response (i.e., understanding this better ourselves). Hopefully someone can share a better answer. 

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JS
Jeff Sandine
Jan 02, 2017
RadiusVision

That was on my mind as I had the 32 channel, 24 camera conversation twice last week with prospects...the jury is still out on these 2 deals. And at that # of cameras, while price difference in dollars is more extreme, the percentage difference is less with a 32 camera system than an 8 camera system.

Assuming an 8 camera AXIS bullet IR camera and Exacq server system, price would be $9000+ vs $600 at Costco. 

I don't consider AXIS/Exacq to be anywhere near the extreme end of system choices and pricing. These are the 2 preferred vendors of choice by integrators, see 2016 IPVM Favorites, AXIS and Exacq reports.

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Sean Nelson
Jan 03, 2017
Nelly's Security

Its real simple. It comes down to 2 things:

#1) Warranty -  Is there a warranty listed? Do you have to send the thing back to China to get warranted?
#2) Support - does the ebay listing even have a phone number?

Luckily we work in an industry where these 2 things are extremely valuable. But as John, said, if yours is comparable to what is being offered on eBay, then maybe you are ripping them off. You should be in a spot in which you can explain your differentiating factors and let the customer make a decision as opposed to you having to "convince" them. If they decide on the junk, then its probably not a good customer anyway.

Also, not sure if you planned on installing the ebay system should they go with it, but if not, you should sell your installation services as well.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #4
Jan 03, 2017

Sean: Before I get to the points you make (which may be valid, depends), I think I need to clarify that at least with me this question isn’t so much about a $600 ‘e-Bay special’ it’s the $200-$350 Walmark pkg (https://www.walmart.com/c/kp/home-security-camera-systems) that has 4-8 cameras (1080P) and a 1 or 2 TB DVR. Installation really isn’t part of the price as that is always viewed as a separate line item. As far a warranty/guarantee, you can typically get a 3-4 yr care plan for something like an additional $37.  So once again, what I would want to know as a customer is what am I not getting in the Walmart system that I would be getting (performance, features) if I paid several thousands of dollars more for a professional system (AXIS, Panasonic, IC Realtime, etc.)? Is it something I can live w/o or something I will really want/need and will I even know the difference if I have no prior camera experience? Fortune 500 clients aren't going to buy or ask to have a Walmart system installed and will want the service aspect, warranty, consultation, etc. that comes with a professional solution, but they still ask and don't really understand even if they basically realize they are getting a lot more. Lite commercial and residential customers are going to be a lot more ‘vocal’ let’s say. Yes, as others have said it depends on what you want/need and the environment (indoor, outdoor, night, day, etc.) but they still think you are ripping them off when there is that big of a price difference. So it goes right back to my point, what is the difference in terms of the price of the equipment and features and what is the best way to demonstrate this to a potential customer? He may say I really don’t need a lot of the high end features. So again in whittling this down, side by side what is going to stand out for all that extra money? Maybe it is [just] quality? If so, a case can be made for selling a system that doesn’t last as long so you have to come back to fix and replace things (future business).

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Sean Nelson
Jan 03, 2017
Nelly's Security

 Not real sure what you tried to sell him, if its something like Axis or Avigilon, then you most likely wont get this sale I dont think. However, if your selling him something like Hikvision or Dahua or something similarly priced, I think you can sell it. Here is what I normally say in those situations. We always get asked to price match against Amazon sellers so this is what I say:

- "We will never price match against Amazon sellers, reason being is they arent offering the same type of service that we do. Its not an apples to apples comparison. I dont know much about their products, they may be good, heck they may be the same exact product. But we offer a 3 year warranty and lifetime tech support and that becomes very important with the products we sell. Have you tried to call that Amazon seller to see what their warranty is or what kind of support they offer? (chances are, they wont be able to find any info on the company at all). If all I had to do was push products without ever hearing from the customer again, I would be perfectly fine with selling products for single digit margins as well, but thats just not our business model."

Then I put the ball in their court: "You can definetely go out and buy that system but in my opinion your taking a risk because when it comes time to needing support or warranty service, your not going to get any at all. So if your okay with that risk, then I would say go for it, I dont blame you."

I have lost a few sales this way but I have made way more than I lost. If they are giving you the time of day in the first place, they probably wanna do business with you, you just gotta give them a reason. And honestly the ones that I lost, I probably wouldnt want anyways. The cheapest customers are always the worst so you have to know when to walk away, if you come across as desperate, your customer will continue to beat you up on price.

 As far as the "As far a warranty/guarantee, you can typically get a 3-4 yr care plan for something like an additional $37."  You need to ask the customer "So how does this work? What if just one camera goes bad in your system? Are you going to have to call some hotline to some guy who can barely speak english that knows nothing about surveillance systems to try to troubleshoot your system? And what if it is just one camera that goes bad, do you have to send the whole system back or can they just send you a replacement camera? And what happens if the camera really isnt bad, it just needs to be troubleshooted? How long does it take to get your refund? Wont you need a replacement camera right away?"

As far as tech support and service goes, you should have this blown away. And yeah I know installation is a seperate line item but what Im saying that is still a big selling point for you. Installating surveillance systems is not easy and having a professional do this should be one of your selling points against the walmart special. 

If this potential customer still cant see the value in what you have to offer and still talks about pricing, then he is probably not worth your time. Focus selling value more than price and you should be good, the above points are just a minor example of how you can do that.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #4
Jan 03, 2017

Thank you Sean. That is very helpful, very useful and I think handles it for me. I am confident I could tackle the issue if (and when) it comes up. Thanks again.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #4
Jan 03, 2017

PS - I'd also like to thank everyone else for the answers they contributed on this topic. They are all helpful and the time you spent to write them is very much appreciated.

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Chris Lanier
Jan 03, 2017

AGREED on the time spent and ideas shared. This issue is not going away. Great angles from all perspectives. Hopefully, the professional manufacturing community will generate more differentials to help combat this for the professional install community.

Happy New Year ALL!

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