We were forwarded a document that was created by a security consultant. Part of the document goes over the expected costs for camera upgrades. Most of the hardware costs seem in line but how in the world did they figure $32/hour for labor cost?
It would be cheaper to write them a check and walk away.
I wonder if they meant 32 hours @ $120/hr. That would seem more realistic price-wise.
I would be OK with it, as long as it took about 32 hours to complete the project ;)
Yeah, seems the "consultant" may have accidentally put in burdened labor cost (and for a Level 1 tech at that) rather than what someone needs to actually make a living.
It would need clarification on what the '6' were and what the 120 hours were. Six techs? how many cameras? We typically estimate 2-3 hours per camera using 2 techs. One hour to pull cable and one hour to terminate and install, and then the misc to focus, address and integrate.
In this case, if it's upgrades, one would assume the cable is there and it might be as little as 1 hour per camera to remove old camera and install the new one.
This will get me the "Rock Smack Down" by a few of the consultants on here, which from what I have seen they know what they are doing, but I can take it. I have been on numerous projects where they have hired a consultant to design a system and I was awarded the project. More often than not the cost of the consultant was not much less than the project and typically the project was re-engineered, thus the lower cost. From what I have seen often the consultant will propose a design but that design doesn't necessarily truly fit the real need of the customer. I am all about customer service and don't want to sell a product to someone if they really don't need it. Not everyone needs the bells and whistles. That aside I would venture most consultants are not that way but I have just run into some that are.
The figure above looks like fuzzy math or was calculated using "Core Math". If the installation dollar total fits within your scope then you should be good.
From another perspective...
I know many end users that got burned by integrators going direct to owner. They install switches anywhere and everywhere, not using cabling/devices UL listed for plenum spaces in plenum spaces, turning accessible ceiling space into a rats nest, "ziptying" to anything and everything, not using raceways, skimping on door position sensors and request to exit devices, violating electrical codes, not firestopping penetrations, not integrating VMS to ACS, using mounts/accessories not rated for environment or location, ugly installs, not being consistent, not documenting projects, and in general cutting corners to shave some dollars off the cost. Integrators also are notorious for putting in systems that eliminate competition on future work.
Not trying to smack you, but some of the integrators out there are creating plenty of work for me.
I agree with you completely. Most likely there are far worse installations out there bad consulting that is for sure. Again it all goes back to treating the customer right.
Would be interesting to know what Mike Silva might think of the consultant's write up, assuming he had the time and was inclined to look at it and provide his feedback.
I think that I would enjoy working an a Mike Silva project. Never met him but from his insights he definitely seems to know his stuff.
Mike Silva has been at GSX and is a little behind on reading these posts. :)
This estimate is clearly inaccurate and is either the result of a clerical/formatting error or has been prepared by someone who doesn't know what he or she is doing. Like in every other profession, there are consultants who are very good, consultants who are very bad, and many that fall in-between.
It is actually rare that one of my clients would share an estimate that I prepared with the contractors bidding on a project. The estimate is usually just an internal tool used for budgeting and decision making. When bids come in well over one of my estimates, the client usually takes the issue up with me, not the bidders.
Cost estimating is one of the more difficult things that I do. Basically, I am trying to guess what the bidders will guess. When figuring costs of equipment, I normally use manufacturer's MSRP pricing, knowing that the "street price" is typically a little less. Estimating labor is the the most difficult. For this I use a variety of sources, including published sources such as IPVM and Means, contractor unit prices from previous bids, conversations with contractors, and my own experience as an installer/project manager in the distant past.
My estimates are usually relatively accurate, but sometimes I get surprised. On one recent access control/video surveillance project at a luxury condominium, my estimate was $250,000. Bids came in at $247,000; $366,000, and $440,000. Even though the design was well-documented and specified down to the part number, there was nearly a $200,000 difference between the low and high bid.
Why would there be such a large spread between the high and low bidders if part numbers were already specified? I understand that some integrators can demand a higher price than others, but that seems very extreme.
Some reasons may be difference in estimated labor hours, and this can be sometimes during a walk-through when a customer tells something to one integrator and not others and basically throws a wrench in the works.
Could be warranty differences. One is warrantying just parts under manufacturer terms. One is warrantying parts and labor for a year. One is warrantying parts and labor for 3 years. This could be because the consultant did not work out with the customer what terms they wanted and specify them so everyone bidding the same apples. But could also be the customer got into a side conversation with one of the bidders and asked for warranty terms different from the others.
But the example Mike gave is pretty extreme.
Often times the big difference between bidders comes down to the risk of the job. The higher the risk the higher the number. Often times when bidding projects even though everything is spelled out doesn't mean that there is still no risk. Sometimes it is the mere fact someone will bid a project high because they don't really want the project but look bad if they don't submit a bid. From my experience the numbers in the middle are typically the most accurate.
Most of the other prices were right, recorder, cameras, switches etc. Its nice because the customer now has an unbiased expectation of what this will cost. Tomorrow is our first meeting to discuss it face to face. I do know there is a lot of conduit work as the garage is 6 or 7 levels and cameras are requested on every level and that is just one area where cameras are needed.
The 32/hour just sets the wrong expectations.
Not only do we pay our techs more than that but when you factor in payroll taxes and everything else that goes into keeping someone employed this wouldn't cover it.
And the sad part is if it was a mistake on the consultants part and he was putting in the integrator's actual cost of labor rather than with markup, if he or she tells that to the customer and then sends them a corrected estimate with $80 to $100 an hour labor on it, unless the customer works in services too, they'll probably think they're getting ripped off. "What!? I'm paying some installer $48 or more an hour in pure profit!?"
Now if the consultant was serious, then that's just a whole nother level of sad.
What is really bad is I don't know anyone who has a $32/hour cost of labor. My guess is that the 32 and the 120 are backwards. Of course why would you break it into six segments unless there were six parts to the install but even then the six different parts wouldn't have the same amount of labor. Puzzling for sure.
True, but then that might mean 32 hours of labor? For 6 or 7 parking garage levels of conduit work? That would be a pretty low estimate of hours for conduit work.
I am assuming the six is a quantity. Maybe they figured 32 hours per level which is low regardless. Maybe for I1's luck the conduit work is being done by an electrician. Then this would be more in line.
There are a lot of posts in this chain speculating about how the Consultant came up with the $32/hr Labor Cost. In my experience with Consultants, they are generally quite willing to answer any questions that a bidder may have as it may result in additional billing against the project if they can justify more work. Also, if you are correcting a previously unknown error on their part (yes, they DO make mistakes) you're actually doing them and everyone else a favor by pointing it out.
My advice; stop guessing how they arrived at the number and just ask!
If you disagree with their explanation and can justify a change to the numbers (you saying 'we charge more for our installation labor' is not a justification that will work for the Consultant), they'll look into it and if they agree, they will present it to the Customer/Owner and ask how they want to proceed; i.e. issue an addendum or not.
If you do not get the answer to your question before the bid closes and price your labor as you would normally (i.e. a higher hourly wage rate than what is published in the bid documents), you run the risk of being excluded from consideration because your numbers are out of whack with their estimate (... and you can be assured that the Consultant will trumpet loudly that nobody questioned the estimate during the Bid Q&A process!!).
Alternately, if nobody questions the labor estimate and all bidders offering on the project offer 'higher numbers' for labor than what the Consultant estimated/allowed for (because every Integrator charges more than $32 an hour for labor, right?), the project may go over budget and be postponed or abandoned (depending on the User) because they can't afford it any more.
By the way, if you are creative, you can usually put the labor dollars you are missing into the labor hours for other labor categories on the project that you can charge more for, or are not specifically called out in the Bid documents; e.g. CAD/Documentation Work, Project Management, lodging, etc. You may only be able to charge $32 an hour for labor, but you may be able to charge $75 for programming and commissioning, or $125 an hour for CAD and Engineering work.
If you do reach out to the Consultant, please share their response for all of those that have been guessing how they came up with $32 for this project.
I've been quoted a $100 per camera for install. That does not include pulling CAT6 or the conduits.
The report was very lengthy covering security issues in stairwells, the garage, etc that involved access control and the cameras. Having the report helps us understand what is needed and that is why it was shared. Having the consultants estimate does not affect how WE will quote it, it just assures me the client already knows what this will cost and is not going to go into sticker shock.
I really am not that concerned about the $32/Hour rate. A customer about to drop 100K + on cameras and access control should know we can not charge $32/hour for labor. That is just common sense, and if it they do not understand that, then it's good we know early on so we can just skip the hassle.
To me it was just odd how it was broken up into qty 6 of 120 hours. I wonder if in their system they just figure a 3 man crew weekly (3 * 40 = 120), and they just assume 6 weeks of work?
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