A Very Arecont Problem - Cut Filters Stuck

IPVM

Just this morning I told someone that Arecont quality had improved and they don't seem to have all the issues they used to, but two hours later, we got out our SurroundVideo Omni for a quick test (just some image comparisons, really), and find this magic:

Four imagers, two cut filters stuck off. We manually switched from day to night multiple times. Nothing. Rebooted. Nothing. Imager 3 was actually worse before the reboot because not only was the filter kicked off, it was monochrome.

These are issues I saw in the very first SurroundVideo I tested when I was still an integrator. Out of the box, one of the filters was stuck. This at least took a few months...though it wasn't even plugged in in that time, it was sitting on a shelf.

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John Honovich

IPVM

50% - that's half working if you are an optimist.

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Brian Rhodes

IPVMU Certified

Protip: Hit the reset button

j/k

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Matt Transue

I recall about a 1-2 year pain period with a manufacturer (not Arecont) having a similar issue. The way the IR filter mechanism was built, allowed for it to become obstructed or simply stick in one position.

I even recall feeling sick when I had to tell customers "Well, you can take a Q-tip and gently push the filter back into position. This should fix the immediate problem, but it will almost certainly happen again."

Then I quickly offered an ARMA.

The 'fix' was a complete redesign of the IR filter mechanism.

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Michael Miller

@ethan what network switches are you using with the Arecont camera? Cisco, HP, Netgear?

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Ethan Ace

In reply to Michael Miller

IPVM

This one was Cisco, an SF302-08MP. That shouldn't make a difference on this though, I'd hope. But good lord who knows.

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Michael Miller

In reply to Ethan Ace

So here is my OMNI story:

I ordered one to test before we sold it to a customer. It was connected to our Avigilon server with HP Procurve switches and it worked fine for 2 weeks.

When we installed it at the customers site which had Cisco switches. It would work for 2 or 3 days and then it would disconnect from Avigilon. Restart the OMNI and it would work again for a couple days then would disconnect again. I contacted their support and they said they have compatiblty issues with Cisco and we would have to configure the switch manually for the camera to work. I followed there directions and it worked for a couple of days and then disconnected again.

Long story short I replaced the camera with a Avigilon multi imager and everything works perfectly!

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Undisclosed Manufacturer #1

Welcome to our world, Ethan. New world, same as the old.

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John Honovich

IPVM

@ethan is your Windows firewall on?

j/k

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Ethan Ace

In reply to John Honovich

IPVM

Yes and Norton, McAfee, and Symantec anti-virus all running concurrently.

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Undisclosed Manufacturer #1

1. Try learning what you are doing, because it was probably your fault.

2. Try a firmware update, that fixes everything!

3. All jokes aside, let us know how easy or difficult it is to return.

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Undisclosed Integrator #2

I've had that problem before with an Arecont...

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Trisha (Chris' wife) Dearing

IPVMU Certified

Sounds like sliding friction of the mechanism is not being overcome by the solenoid.

Have you considered slapping it around a bit? ;)

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John Honovich

In reply to Trisha (Chris' wife) Dearing

IPVM

"Have you considered slapping it around a bit? ;)"

For every 3 Arecont cameras you buy, get a free broomstick...

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Ethan Ace

In reply to Trisha (Chris' wife) Dearing

IPVM

I did actually give it a good firm knock or two. It didn't do anything.

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Kevin Nadai

Make sure the camera is not starved of PoE power. Often PoE switches cannot deliver maximum power across all ports simultaneously. You might have enough to run the camera, but not enough left over for the solenoid. Solenoids like juice.

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Ethan Ace

IPVM

In reply to Kevin Nadai

It was actually the only camera on the switch.

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Undisclosed Manufacturer #1

In reply to Kevin Nadai

Of the 4 or 5 brands of POE cameras we have dealth with in the past 5 or 6 years, Arecont is the only brand we have seen having regular problems with the IR cut filter getting stuck.

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Ethan Ace

In reply to Undisclosed Manufacturer #1

IPVM

We did have a stuck cut filter on the $30 Wodsee camera...but this Arecont is $1400. Something's a wee bit off on that comparison.

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Undisclosed #3

In reply to Ethan Ace

Although, there are a small handful of suppliers that make IR Cut assemblies. There is a very real possibility that they share more components in common than you think.

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John Honovich

In reply to Undisclosed #3

IPVM

That sounds reasonable. If so, care to explain why Arecont has far more reported cut filter problems than, e.g., Avigilon and Axis combined?

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Undisclosed #3

In reply to John Honovich

Most of the IR cut filter assemblies I've seen are fairly fragile. They are generally magnetically operated (there are some servo based ones, but those tend to be too large and expensive). Some have a magnet at either end of a "slider", with a coil of wire around the actual glass filter, others have the magnet on the glass and the coil wound around the assembly.

The move the cut filter you apply a DC voltage one direction or the other, which creates a magnetic field in the wire, which then attracts it or repels it relative to the fixed magnets. This causes the glass piece with the IR filter coating to move back and forth.

This is a good example of the assembly:

Sometimes you have to (or, alternately MAY) apply a steady voltage to keep the fitler glass "locked" in one position or the other.

Ultimately the drive voltage and current is regulated by the camera and the commands to move the filter are issued by the camera's control logic.

Things that can go wrong:

Supply voltage or current is too high, damaging the very fine wire coil.

Supply voltage or current is too high, causing the glass assembly to move too far/too fast and get wedged

Supply voltage is too low, from bad power management in the camera or other factors, causing the coil to not be energized enough to make a strong enough magnetic field to initiate movement.

Filter is moved too frequently, causing the wire coil to break (in cases where the coil is on the moving glass, and not stationary on the assembly).

Other components around the lens assembly interfere with the magnetic field and cause the filter not to move.

Lens assembly is inserted too tight/too close to the filter assembly, causing it to bind up and prevent movement.

Camera seals are poor or internal airflow design causes dust to build up, preventing movement of the filter.

You could have 10 vendors all using the exact same component, and they could do something wrong that causes their own distinct failure mode. Given how obvious failure of the IR cut assembly is in the camera image, I've often been surprised that they are such a delicate and crappy design.

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Trisha (Chris' wife) Dearing

In reply to Undisclosed #3

IPVMU Certified

Is it possible to put the IR cut filter before the lens? It looks to me like this camera may do that, but can't tell for sure...

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Undisclosed #3

In reply to Trisha (Chris' wife) Dearing

Technically the cut filter could be anywhere in the light path before the sensor.

However, putting it in FRONT of the lens would mean it would need to be a much larger assembly (typically lenses have a front element ~3x-4X the area of the rear element).

I doubt the camera you pictured as the ir cut in front of the lens, it just looks that way.

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John Honovich

In reply to Undisclosed #3

IPVM

C, great explanation!

Evidently, simply based on observed issues, other manufacturers have been better able to anticipate and solve those risks more than Arecont.

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Undisclosed #3

In reply to John Honovich

I've never taken apart an Arecont camera, so I'm not sure how the IR cut filter is setup, or even if its the same basic assembly across all their models. But IMO they could use the same component as a Longse camera and still have 10x as many failures. Usually though those kinds of things are on the easier end of the "fixable problems" scale, so I don't know why they'd continue to have issues over multiple generations and iterations of product.

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Undisclosed #4