Lee Odess Is Angry At IPVM (2023)

IPVM

Recall, 3 years ago: Lee Odess Vows "An Army Of People Working Overtime" Against IPVM. Then he was acquihired by Latch, which shortly thereafter imploded - Latch Lays Off 130, Promotes Lee Odess, Latch's Lee Odess No Longer Runs Sales And Marketing, Lee Odess Leaves Latch. Odess is back now with ongoing series of criticisms of IPVM so I'd like to set the record straight.

2 weeks ago, I spoke alongside the CEOs of ESA, PSA, and NCSA plus HID's EVP on PSA's State of the Union. This resulted in Odess posting 3 items where he criticized the much-discussed claim I presented that cloud was net negative to integrators. He first posted a video deliberately misrepresenting what I said, a second one calling it "fear-mongering" and then finally one calling it a "literal 🐶 whistle".

Today, he posted the following:

IPVM Image

Odess does not like us and a lot of this is just opinion but I'll comment on the specific claims of "limited to no access to details" and "technical product breakdowns".

Just this week, Angelique, who has a Master's in Business Journalism, published a report based on interviewing Milestone's CFO. And today, Mert, who has a Ph.D. in Mechanical Engineering, published a report based on interviewing Cobalt Robotic's CEO plus Nikita, who has a Master's in Physics, published a report based on interviewing Nightingale's CEO. We do this with regularity and at a level that no one else even tries.

And we have more people just doing testing at IPVM than all the US "media outlets" combined doing "reporting". The work we do ranking analytics, access control, VSaaS, switches, facial recognition, and more is so far ahead of what anyone else is even trying that there is simply no comparison. And knowing how well things actually work (and even more critically don't work) provides us a competitive edge in understanding business trends.

Bouncing from job to job and yet trying to claim success and influence is a common problem. Odess excels at this (from this post):

IPVM Image

Let me end on a positive note, I genuinely believe that Odess has found a good niche recently with the various shows he is going to help market and encourage manufacturers. I wish him well at that, it's not something IPVM aims to do, and it is something important for companies to get the word out.

IPVM is focused on expanding the already unmatched business reporting, investigative reporting, and research we do and if Odess can actually do any of the types of substantive work we do, I'll be happy to compliment him on such work, since it is hard and needed.

Reactions:

(5)

(2)

Undisclosed #1

Lee: Unfortunately, our industry has to continue supporting his dribble

this is the 2nd time someone has called out John's dribble on his own site.

[Editor's Note: Peter Goldring: "As An Expert Witness And Industry Analyst, I Am Often Asked About IPVM And Enjoy Every Chance I Get To Debunk Their Drivel."]

even though he has to hide his identity in public to avoid the PRC paparazzi, I think his dribble speaks for itself

Reactions:

(7)

Undisclosed Integrator #2

His image is well known as well as where he lives and eats. With that said he certainly has a right to seek privacy.

Reactions:

(1)

Undisclosed #1

In reply to Undisclosed Integrator #2

please do not try and deconstruct my witty humor.

Reactions:

(7)

Undisclosed Integrator #2

The mystery of what makes a joke funny – but only to some people

Reactions:

(1)

Undisclosed #1

joke construction:

part one: the word both Lee and the other guy meant to use is drivel - not dribble.

part two: the hiding his identity comment is a set up for the video I found

part three: the Professor wearing an alien costume dribbling.

Reactions:

(1)

(5)

Undisclosed Integrator #6

•May 30, 2023

Are we just gonna ignore that it is DRIVEL and not "dribble"?

Reactions:

(1)

(3)

Robert Shih

Independent

How is it that I, as a Chinese person, wouldn't make that mistake? The word is DRIVEL! I get that the stereotype for spelling bee champions is from my neck of the woods, but c'mon people!

Reactions:

Taylor May

SVIP

There is no need to justify the work you & the team do Honovich. Why else would you have the substantial following that you do? It’s obvious that Odess has a personal vendetta against you, not so much IPVM as a whole.

Reactions:

(8)

(1)

Undisclosed Manufacturer #3

How can someone who has failed at business as much as Lee, have the ability to look himself in the mirror and claim to be an expert or influencer? It’s so laughable.

And for those who actually listen to his nonsense, it’s like listening to Lizzo about dieting or North Korea about human rights. Where’s the credibility?

Reactions:

(10)

(1)

(8)

John Honovich

In reply to Undisclosed Manufacturer #3

IPVM

Odess is doing a good job promoting access control companies, so I would think access control companies would be happy to engage with him. Here's a new video he released this morning, as an example:

These companies are rarely promoted so Odess doing so is a benefit, especially so at trade shows where Odess can help bring these companies together for networking.

There is precedent for this, in the past, e.g., Steve Hunt and Sandy Jones (though, in fairness, to Sandy Jones, she did not bounce from job to job like Odess).

Reactions:

(1)

(3)

Undisclosed #4

How's his book and the 12k in Kickstarter funds doing?

Do speakers at these events get paid? Do they pay for their own travel expenses?

Doesn't SIA have some form of ethics clause against bashing other members? IPVM hasn't been his own target in the past.

Reactions:

(2)

John Honovich

In reply to Undisclosed #4

IPVM

I support Odess's right to criticize me. I think he could do it in a more sophisticated manner and that would make him and his partners like SIA look better.

As for the book, the Kickstarter page has had no updates in 7 months, though in terms of how long, the Kickstarter page also says "We are giving ourselves 365 days to complete it. Fingers crossed."

Reactions:

Undisclosed #4

Criticism versus constructive criticism or offering an alternative view are two different things. You are correct in saying a more sophisticated manner. Saying your Grandparents didn't hug you offers nothing to the conversation. To me that borderlines on psychotic behavior.

Reactions:

John Honovich

In reply to Undisclosed #4

IPVM

Saying your Grandparents didn't hug you

In fairness and for context that remark was from 2020:

IPVM Image

I forgot about how he repeatedly publicly professed a desire to hug me. Again, in fairness, he has not offered to hug me in some time.

Reactions:

(1)

(3)

Undisclosed #4

Covid is over, maybe that hug is back on the table!

Reactions:

(5)

Mert Karakaya

IPVMU Certified

I went to check Odess' video but Odess blocked me. I've never interacted with or said anything to him or about him.

Reactions:

(2)

Ryan King

Pacific Audio and Communications

In addition to the dribbling drivel and 'reporting' (in scare quotes) on this blog, I enjoy the repartee amongst the Discusserers. But I'm not hugging any of you.

Reactions:

(1)

(2)

Michael Henderson

The fact that you air your pissing match here is extremely childish.

Reactions:

(1)

(5)

John Honovich

In reply to Michael Henderson

IPVM

Micheal, I think it's important to set the record straight so that people who see him attacking us repeatedly understand where we are coming from.

As I said in this thread, I think what Odess is doing with marketing manufacturers at shows makes a lot of sense and I wish him well at that.

Reactions:

(3)

John Honovich

•May 23, 2023

IPVM

A few updates to hopefully close this out for now:

Odess has systematically manually blocked IPVM employees on LinkedIn. Most IPVM employee has no idea who Odess even was. If Odess' goal is to convince them how bad I am, blocking them is unlikely to help.
On Saturday, Odess posted, "I don’t have a vendetta. I have disdain" and that "*this will be my last post on this subject. I’m going to go back to doing what I do. He doesn’t matter as much as many would like to believe and I need to work on not responding. So this is me working on moving on and not responding."
On Monday, Odess posted yet another video responding to my point about the cloud being net negative to integrators. He also declared it to be "A fear mongering message of doom and gloom is their 🐶 whistle." I have no idea how this is a dog whistle, even if you disagree with it.

We've been busy this week. Yesterday, Bashis's Hikvision vulnerabilities discovery, and tomorrow Ethan's NVR rankings, etc. At some point soon, though, we will do a full explanation of the various issues with the cloud being net negative to integrators.

Reactions:

(1)

(2)

Undisclosed #1

I’m going to go back to doing what I do. He doesn’t matter as much as many would like to believe and I need to work on not responding.

Reactions:

(2)

Undisclosed Manufacturer #5

"I’m going to go back to doing what I do" It appears this is what he does:

Hosting ACS23

From his website " To ensure the highest level of quality, we're not accepting sponsorships. Instead, we're relying on the support of our attendees to make this event a success. Non-Access Control Executive Brief tickets are available for $2000, while members can request a promo code for a discounted rate of $1000."

$2000 for a one day conference or $1000 if you pay the $30 a month for a subscription to his "Brief"

Reactions:

(2)

Rick Caruthers

In reply to Undisclosed Manufacturer #5

Galaxy Control Systems

I as well saw the announcement for this event and at first I was interested in attending and would have paid a reasonable amount but $2k seems a bit high for a one day event, I don't care who is speaking that is tough to justify. Also, let's pretend that all 150 people (max number of tickets offered) pay the $2k, that is $300,000 for a one day event.

Reactions:

(1)

(2)

John Honovich

In reply to Rick Caruthers

IPVM

Let me help Odess sell here. I think the point is to have you sign up for a monthly subscription and then you only pay $1,000.

Reactions:

(1)

Rick Caruthers

Galaxy Control Systems

In reply to Rick Caruthers

I get that, but even at $1k that is still a lot for a one day event.

Reactions:

(1)

Donald Maye

•May 25, 2023

Depending on who you are and what you aim to achieve - $1K could be a good value. Access to business executives in a single networking event can be very valuable for certain people/businesses.

$1K is also on par with other industry events, like Securing New Ground and Imperial Captial's Security Investor Conference.

Reactions:

Brian Karas

•May 25, 2023

Pelican Zero

In reply to Rick Caruthers

One of many challenges with smaller events is that the meeting spaces and basic catering are still super expensive.

Seating for 150 people, a stage, some A/V, coffee/refreshments, etc. A $50K one-day expense would not be unheard of. Then add in travel costs, prep costs, etc. These kinds of events are typically not uber-profitable on their own.

Reactions:

(1)

John Honovich

•May 25, 2023

IPVM

In reply to Brian Karas

Yes, that's our experience as well. Assume there are going to be meals here and those costs tend to be very high. And if there are drinks, etc.

I remember years ago when we did a small room at ISC West, they charged us ~$5 or something for tiny bottles of water, etc.

Reactions:

John Honovich

IPVM

Odess has posted again about this (his 5th post) on my PSA remark about cloud being net negative:

IPVM Image

Can someone explain to Lee what the word "net" means? Net is when you sum the positives and negatives together, that is mixed.

For example, if one says Lach has net negative income, it does not mean it has no revenue. Rather it means that its expenses exceed its revenue.

Likewise, my remark about cloud being net negative to integrators is that after one sums the positives and the negatives, on balance, the negatives will be more than the positives. Anyone is free to disagree with this but can you please at least start with understanding what the word net means?

As I mentioned earlier, we will do a full post on this at some point in the future, though balancing this with many other things we are publishing.

Reactions:

Undisclosed #4

I thought he was done with the situation?

Reactions:

John Honovich

In reply to Undisclosed #4

IPVM

This is what he said:

IPVM Image

Reactions:

Taylor May

SVIP

You really struck a nerve with Odess. Who the hell cares about whether this is positive or negative for integrators? Integrators will run their business however they see fit. They don’t need word vomit posts like this to “influence” them.

Reactions:

Undisclosed #4

In reply to Taylor May

John lives rent free in Lee's head.

Reactions:

(4)

John Honovich

IPVM

In reply to Taylor May

I do think integrators and others should care, e.g. see your and others' comments on this recent discussion How Similar Are Car Dealers And Security Integrators?

I am not sure why Odess keeps on posting these short complaints on LinkedIn, but free speech.

Reactions:

Taylor May

SVIP

The successful integrators are the ones that solely care about securing revenue & keeping/listening to their customers. Not posts from Odess or even things that I have said.

Of course, to each their own but at the end of the day, these kinds of posts don’t carry weight. Unless you care about BS industry awards for your “thought leadership”.

Reactions:

Undisclosed Integrator #7

Is Lee emotionally invested in the cloud being the future for everything? Seems like he's actually offended about what you said, like you insulted his family. It's just speculating about future business trends...

Reactions:

(1)

Undisclosed #8

This is what ChatGPT thinks about the cloud being net positive/negative for integrators.

The adoption of cloud-based systems in the realm of physical security can have both positive and negative impacts on physical security integrators. Let's break it down:

Negative impacts:

1. Shift in skill sets: With the rise of cloud-based security systems, there's a growing need for integrators to be proficient in IT and networking. Companies that have traditionally focused on hardware-based systems might find it challenging to transition to the new skill sets required.

2. Decreased hardware sales: As more organizations opt for cloud-based solutions, the demand for traditional hardware-based security systems might decrease, which could negatively impact the revenue of integrators who are primarily focused on these systems.

3. Vendor lock-in: Many cloud solutions come with the risk of vendor lock-in, where a client's data is stored on remote servers and they become dependent on the vendor's cloud services. This could reduce the flexibility of integrators in providing solutions that meet their clients' unique needs.

4. Competition: With the rise of cloud technologies, there's a risk that traditional integrators could face increased competition from IT companies that are entering the security market.

Positive impacts:

1. Recurring revenue: Cloud solutions often involve subscription-based pricing models, which could result in more predictable, recurring revenue for integrators.

2. Remote access and management: Cloud systems typically allow for remote access and management, making it easier for integrators to provide support and services to their clients. This could improve client relationships and open up new service opportunities.

3. Scalability: Cloud solutions are typically more scalable than traditional systems, which could make it easier for integrators to cater to the needs of both small and large clients.

4. Innovation and new opportunities: The shift towards the cloud is driving innovation in the security industry, and can open up new opportunities for integrators. For example, the integration of AI and machine learning into cloud-based security solutions is creating new possibilities for advanced threat detection and response.

In summary, the shift towards cloud is not necessarily net negative for physical security integrators. It does pose challenges, but also presents new opportunities. The impact will largely depend on how well the integrators adapt to the changes and leverage the new technologies to their advantage.

Depending on how you rank these factors, it can be a net negative, especially with manufacturers selling direct.

Reactions:

(1)

John Honovich

In reply to Undisclosed #8

IPVM

Very interesting! One element that I think is wrong:

With the rise of cloud-based security systems, there's a growing need for integrators to be proficient in IT and networking.

The opposite is clearly happening. As more systems go to the cloud, on net, less IT knowledge is needed for security integrators. This eliminates setting up and maintaining VMS and ACS management systems, and reduces, at least, the amount of networking expertise one needs since these systems, by default, phone home through firewalls.

Reactions:

(1)

Ryan King

Pacific Audio and Communications

I don't agree with this. Cloud services improve security and we aren't burdened by DynDNS accounts and port forwarding, which is good. But you still have to have solid IT chops to make these systems work well and I don't see that changing. If anything, cloud services are supplemental and abridge traditional on-prem architecture.

Very few are 100% cloud plug-and-play like Verkada which has figured out to make it as easy as possible but they have a closed sandbox and VSaaS model. But is Verkada 100% cloud? No, the data is stored on-prem. Metadata and snapshots and programming move through the cloud.

Who are you to argue with ChatGPT?

NOTICE: This comment has been moved to its own discussion: Does Cloud Systems Increase Or Reduce The Need For Integrators To Be Proficient In IT And Networking?

Reactions:

(1)

John Honovich

IPVM

Update: In the OP, I pointed out that Odess bounced from job to job. There's a happy update to this.

Odess has a new LinkedIn post - Reflections on 24 Years of Work: Finding Happiness Through the Access Control and Smart Lock Community in which he acknowledges:

For 24 years, I was never settled, always chasing, and never satisfied. I was too quick to pack up and leave, only to end up in the same situation. The only common denominator in all this was me. It had nothing to do with my ability to work. It was always because I was uncomfortable and unhappy with my actions.

Odess emphasizes the community he is building, concluding:

I know this is the first time in 24 years that I am doing work that makes me 100% happy.

And for that, I am excited for what is ahead.

Thank you, #accesscontrol and #smartlock community, thank you.

As I also mentioned in the OP, I do think Odess has found a good niche for himself, and I am happy for him.

Reactions:

Undisclosed #1

I do think Odess has found a good niche for himself

what's the niche - jobs with no accountability for producing actual results?

if so, maybe you are right.

Reactions:

(1)

John Honovich

IPVM

Disagree. There are actual results. He's making connections among executives and financiers, etc. And it's a highly lucrative niche.

When you have sales and marketing people (and most execs are from those backgrounds), of course, there will be a lot of fluff. Granted.

But there are also big deals to be done, and getting those people together has been and will continue to be important.

I was critical about the whole podcasting thing (and I was right about that), but what's he doing now makes a lot of sense.

Reactions:

(1)

Undisclosed #1

the 'what niche' joke was a slam reference to the previous 24 years he mentions vs a specific comment on his new gig.

He's making connections among executives and financiers, etc. And it's a highly lucrative niche.

is it? maybe it can be, but has there been historical problems with execs finding funding sources without Lee?

what makes him a better resource than any others who do the same thing... irrespective of his constant ruminations about how he so clearly cares about and loves the industry and the community?

Reactions:

John Honovich

IPVM

what makes him a better resource than any others who do the same thing...

He's traveling around the world to meet with these people, and he's bringing them together. No one else is doing that.

but has there been historical problems with execs finding funding sources without Lee?

Doing deals (whether M&A or partnerships, etc.) is difficult for most execs. Add to the fact that so many new access control entrants know very few industry people, and Odess provides value to them.

Reactions:

(1)

Taylor May

SVIP

I wouldn’t say it’s difficult for executives to find funding. Maybe more so on the access control side for these new players (where Odess provides value) but generally funding can be easily identified.

I agree that Odess is good at bringing together these folks and sharing his expertise on the ACS side. But it also depends on how desperate the manufacturer is for his “services”. There’s conflicting messaging in Odess’s posts sometimes where he says he “doesn’t give plugs” but yet highlights companies left & right on his travels. Probably because he’s getting paid by those companies.

To each their own of course, but there’s pros & cons with Odess.

Reactions:

(1)

Robert Shih