Subscriber Discussion

Seeking Recommendations For ALPR System For Upscale Neighborhood?

MD
Mark Davis
Nov 09, 2018

My HOA is soliciting info on this and I volunteered to help them out.  We recently had a bunch of our mailboxes broken into.  The proposal is to add ALPR at the entrance of the neighborhood.

I was hoping the collective and considerable expertise here could guide some recommendations on:

1. Best cams for ALPR - low speed (<25, likely <15), but night-time w/headlight filtering is mandatory.

2. Best self-contained system - secure, stainless CBU w/cell?  I can probably get power to the area, but not so sure about Internet - not likely...

3. Best SW to use - openALPR, other cloud based ALPR logging systems?

I would also prefer non-proprietary CODECs - ie. not Mobotix...but if folks think Mobotix is the best, I want to know that - I am extremely familiar with Mobotix cams - I own 8 of them....but recently switched to Axis Q35 series..love my Q3518s.

Also, recommended folks in the Portland, OR area who specialize in this type of installations?

Thanks, -mark

 

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Avatar
Clint Hays
Nov 09, 2018

Are you doing gate control integration or just trying to build a database of vehicles?

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MD
Mark Davis
Nov 09, 2018

Good question.  For my house, maybe - I've always wanted to integrate ALPR into my gate controls...for the neighborhood, no.  This neighborhood is not currently gated.  

We just need to log car plates for a limited time to allow for review in case a crime was committed...I also want to consider privacy issues.

 

-mark

Avatar
Clint Hays
Nov 10, 2018

I would be concerned with privacy issues if you're creating a database of vehicles/time/location thru alpr if you don't have the HOA consent. I understand the idea, but typically we would be dealing with the hoa at entry points rather than on a residents home.

 

If you want to test out software let me know. I know your a Mobotix guy, and I have s15s running gate control thru LPR in Colorado, but Mobotix makes ALPR tasks difficult.

MD
Mark Davis
Nov 10, 2018

To be clear: I am consulting on behalf of the HOA - they will have complete control of the system -- and I will not have any control.  The primary location is for street entrances.

I used to have a ton of Mobotix cams myself, but I've moved to Axis Q3517s and Q3518s...I'm OK recommending whatever is best for the HOA.

 

-mark

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UE
Undisclosed End User #5
Nov 15, 2018

there is no expectation of privacy exterior of a vehicle when you drive a vehicle down a public street. There is however a diminished expectation of privacy inside your vehicle which increases as you move about the vehicle (trunk, glove compartment) an expectation of privacy exterior is returned as soon as you turn down a privately owned driveway but only when its a driveway owned by the same person as the vehicle trans-versing the private roadway.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #7
Dec 31, 2019

Can you define "diminished expectation" of privacy as it relates to "inside your vehicle" as one moves about the same, i.e. "trunk, glove compartment"?

If someone is on their own private driveway, but within view of someone legally occupying space outside that party's private driveway, would there be and expectations to that part inside or outside a vehicle so owned by that same party?

What state law or revised code are you referencing?

U
Undisclosed #1
Nov 09, 2018

Have you looked at Flock? Not sure where they are with their launch but they were building a product for exactly your needs. 

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MD
Mark Davis
Nov 09, 2018

Looking now...https://www.flocksafety.com/  Interesting option.  I wonder how good the system works - ie. how capable is it at capturing plates at night, in snow, etc. -mark

JH
John Honovich
Nov 09, 2018
IPVM
MD
Mark Davis
Nov 09, 2018

The privacy aspects look interesting, but I'm curious about:

a.) the camera quality

b.) the IR quality

c.) the whole battery/power situation - Oregon doesn't get that much sunlight.  Solar really isn't ideal for this location.

d.) the lack of a CBU or other secure unit to put it in?

e.) quality of capture...

 

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MD
Mark Davis
Nov 09, 2018

I should note that Oregon requires both front and rear plates - is it preferable to setup the system for rear-only plates?

SD
Shannon Davis
Nov 09, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Vaxtor has a cool and easy to use product that can work directly on an Axis camera.

 

Vaxtor VaxALPR on camera

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MD
Mark Davis
Nov 10, 2018

It would be really nice if someone did a shootout/comparison of the various options...Both openALPR and Vaxtor are on-camera apps for Axis, for instance...

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SD
Shannon Davis
Nov 10, 2018
IPVMU Certified

I’ve not seen the openALPR in action but I can tell you the Vaxtor setup is sooper simple and works really well. Now with that I haven’t seen the Vaxtor in action at night with headlights blaring into the image though. Of course that will rely more on the camera being put in. When we were shown this the camera was about 250’ away and about a 15 degree offset and never missed one tag. 

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JH
John Honovich
Nov 11, 2018
IPVM

Mark, good idae about LPR shootout. I've added that to our schedule. I wouldn't expect a report to be published until 2019 (2-3 months) but it's on the schedule now.

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MD
Mark Davis
Nov 10, 2018

There is also https://www.openalpr.com/ ...and for Axis.  Anyone try it?

U
Undisclosed #2
Nov 13, 2018

You can try OpenALPR for 14-days at no charge. Simply register for an account and download the Axis Agent at: http://cloud.openalpr.com.

Avatar
Chris Anderson
Nov 10, 2018

If you would like a turnkey product specifically designed for the control and comms side of the solution we can help there.  We manufacture a product called the MIP which is used for connection to remote cameras and is in use for HOA entry/exit projects today.  Many of these are fairly exclusive neighborhoods (southern California coast) and have required custom painting and blending of the equipment to match thr environment.  Some have gone so far as to have landscaping companies design the systems in for asthetics sake.

Most (non gov) customers don't want to pay for true LPR so typically good quality cameras paired with illumination are used. In a lot of casses we tie 3-5 cameras to each MIP for overview and close-ups on entry/exit lane of travel recording to a standard VMS.

LPR can be a finicky beast to deal with and the best tech is usually expensive. We partner with gov agencies who use our MIP product to enable both Genetec and Vigilant Video LPR systems.  These work well, are more forgiving in terms of installation and environmental effects and have a price tag to match.

I have not seen Flock firsthand, on paper it seems great but unsure of the reality for the reasons you mention.

We are based in Eugene, let me know if you'd like to collaborate.

Thanks!

Chris

JH
Jay Hobdy
Nov 12, 2018
IPVMU Certified

We work with a lot of HOA's and apartment communities. Unless you are trying to match the license plates to a database to trigger an action, I do not see the point in it. Board members usually do not want to be bothered with details, etc. 

 

You may want to consider a system where you can simply read the license plate during video playback.

 

 

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Nov 13, 2018

I was working up a similar solution recently, the recommendation of using Arteco on the Edge with a 12MP Hanwha Bullet.  Has anyone had any experience with this combo before.

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RB
Ramsey Burns
Dec 30, 2019

Also can try FF Group they have embedded app for Hanwa and Axis cameras, I know of it being used successfully. For camera+embedded in one manufacturer try Tattile, have used it. US plates are a bit of a headache for LPR so always check about compatibility.

UE
Undisclosed End User #4
Nov 13, 2018

For item #2, How far is the entrance from your closest house? I would look into wireless hop to a NEMA enclosure @ the closest, use that houses broadband connection with a higher end router that could isolate the network from the homeowners network, furthermore you might want to look into municipal broadband for the whole community...

If Muni Broadband peaks your interest, start your research here for working examples:

 

https://muninetworks.org/

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MD
Mark Davis
Nov 22, 2018

Entrance to closest house is within 500', but I'd rather setup a more independent system that relies on cellular.

Thanks,

-mark

Avatar
Daniel McKimm
Dec 29, 2019

With everything occurring on the Net Neutrality front I would suggest any industry or party dealing in Internet access not only take heed of the Muni Broadband movement, but specifically reference Open Access | community broadband networks .

Our community volunteer group researched and studied how communities, businesses, institutions (especially education, libraries, governments, public safety and healthcare), citizens and taxpayers could all be served best in regard to Internet access. Our commissioned study from Magellan Advisors unequivocally recommended and validated communities adopt the open access model ( www.theforthutility.org/study ). Based on SDN and NFV we discovered a platform from a company called Entry Point Networks, LLC ( www.entpnt.com ) that made it possible for any local government or political sub-division to bring Gigabit downland AND UPLOAD to every home, business and institution in its community.

U
Undisclosed #6
Dec 29, 2019

www.theforthutility.org

for those with OCDs like mine, I've saved you some time:

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #7
Dec 30, 2019

You can enter either way, "fourth" or "forth"

Avatar
Brian Rhodes
Dec 30, 2019
IPVMU Certified

We recently had a bunch of our mailboxes broken into. The proposal is to add ALPR at the entrance of the neighborhood.

It might be pedantic to point this out, but the ALPR camera won't keep people from breaking into mailboxes, right? :) Is there an existing surveillance system this should be integrated with?

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U
Undisclosed #6
Dec 30, 2019

"the ALPR camera won't keep people from breaking into mailboxes"

yes, but LPR cameras (if entrances are limited to 1 or 2) can help to identify who might have been in a certain area at a certain time.

or at least whose vehicle was.

I don't think ALPR is ever used as a preventative solution.... instead, it's geared more to investigations of crimes that have already occurred.

When used in conjunction with hot lists (as police do on highways for instance) - it can be viewed more proactively... but being on that list is still based on prior crimes.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #8
Dec 31, 2019

For Portland Oregon there is only one choice, Security Monster!

U
Undisclosed #6
Dec 31, 2019

you really should include links when you reference something like Security Monster so people with OCDs like mine don't have to look that shit up...

Security Monster

P.S. the Monster is based in Eugene, not Portland.

P.P.S. I kind of like the Security Monster message - even though they haven't updated their website in 7+ years.

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