Subscriber Discussion

Can You Break Into Your Own House?

U
Undisclosed #1
Jun 04, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Returning home from the airport after being out of town for a week, my wife reminded me that we needed to stop to get our key back from a friend who had been checking on our house, in order to unlock the front door.

My reply troubled her greatly.  

Stupidly and proudly I said, “Oh, I can get in easy.”

I was remembering that after I put in a pet door I realized that if you really stretched you could get inside far enough to pull up the pin that secures one side of the double doors. Then there is enough play in the doors that you can pull them open even with the deadbolt bolted.

Once were inside I got a good dose of haranguing and even some light mocking about me being “Mr. Security” with an unsecure house.  

Needless to say, I kept the other three ways to get in the house to myself...

tldr;

But I am curious if it’s just me, so I’m asking all the pros out there to honestly consider their own house and say whether they could get in without damaging anything, if they had to.

So I could use it in my defense :)

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Jun 04, 2018

Well, considering we have dogs and leave the back door open. I am very risk tolerant and we do not lock any doors, etc. So yes, we could easily get in.

But we rent the house, it is falling apart, doors, don't close right, etc. We are trying to buy a home now, and when we do that, we will be securing it by adding storm doors with a doggie door, alarm, electric locks, cameras, etc.

 

Yeah, shameful, but I do have cameras at the office!

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #3
Jun 04, 2018

Yes, I can. 

There's one janky door that's nearly impossible to open by normal means but just kind of pops open if you hit it in the right spot. I keep meaning to fix it. 

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U
Undisclosed #4
Jun 04, 2018

Three dogs in the house = the back door usually is unlocked.  I do lock the front door at night and the garage door (garage being a loose term, more like attached storage shed) is locked until my wife deposits more crap in it and conveniently forgets to mention it to me.  My biggest domestic complaint:  my wife parks her car in the driveway and never locks the car.  I thought I'd mess with her and removed the umbrella in the driver side door and loose coins in the center console.  She asked me about the umbrella the next time it rained, but never about the coins.  She still doesn't lock the car doors.  So now it has become my job to check and lock her car whenever I walk by it...pissed her off one time when it was snowing out and her car keys were not easy to retrieve from her purse with gloves!  The cold, wet, "you suck" look I got was totally worth it.

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U
Undisclosed #1
Jun 04, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Three dogs in the house = the back door usually is unlocked. I do lock the front door at night...

Three Dog Night = stumbling thru the back door at 2 am, trying not to  trigger the hounds ;)

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Avatar
Brian Karas
Jun 04, 2018
Pelican Zero

Not sure I could break into my current house easily. Others I could, but like your case, it is the result of application-specific and detailed knowledge. Just because YOU can break into your house, does not mean the average criminal will be able to as well (though I'd rate pet doors as creating a pretty big risk in general).

Your wife's concern may be unfounded, but I'm not sure that pointing her to a bunch of comments on an internet forum is really going to do you any good in the end.

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U
Undisclosed #1
Jun 04, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Your wife's concern may be unfounded, but I'm not sure that pointing her to a bunch of comments on an internet forum is really going to do you any good in the end.

As much as I would like her to ‘point her’ to the forum, it is explicitly (and fortunately) disallowed by one or even *both* of the following IPVM T&C’s:

  • Do not use IPVM research for promotion.
  • Do not share your access / password with any one else.

On the other hand, some latitude is granted by the statement: 

“Finally, within the bounds of fair use, you may publicly copy excerpts...”

So perhaps a carefully prepared “executive summary” with some self-serving excerpts would be helpful, and still be considered fair use.

sotd gotta run <logout>

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U
Undisclosed #7
Jun 04, 2018

"Just because YOU can break into your house, does not mean the average criminal will be able to as well"

While that might certainly be true of the average criminal - those that burglarize houses for a living probably know other ways that you don't.

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UE
Undisclosed End User #12
Jun 14, 2018

Just because YOU can break into your house, does not mean the average criminal will be able to as well

Classic example of insider verse external threat scenario. Something to talk to clients about also.  How would you or one of your employees break in?  

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #5
Jun 04, 2018

I used to keep the kitchen window unlocked for this reason.  We had a few break-ins near our neighborhood, so I wised up.  We still have a pet door, which is difficult, but possible.

 

We chose to evacuate to the in-laws for a hurricane about 10 years ago, just after Katrina hit NOLA.  We drink bottled water at home, and we left behind about 40 gallons of bottled water in the garage.  I also drove a very capable Jeep at that time.  With images of New Orleans in mind, I sent an email to all my coworkers and friends with instructions on how to break in to my house while doing the least damage.  I told them which window to break out so they could reach the window lock, but also be able to close the window and not make it obvious.  "If you need water, it's in the garage.  If you need to leave town, the gas tank is full.  If you need to boil water, we have a gas range, and the gas rarely goes out. Etc." 

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Avatar
Brian Rhodes
Jun 04, 2018
IPVMU Certified

I've put some attention to making my house tough to get in to.  It is hardly impossible, but under normal conditions it would take some time, create noise, and the person would be highly visible.

Like many mention, pet doors are a major weakness.  So are kickable doors. We actually covered a reinforcing kit here: The $90 'Failproof' Door Kit

Glass windows are a typical weakness for smashing to gain entry.  There are a variety of window films on the market that claim to offer ballistic reinforcement.  I have something similar on my windows and glass doors:

The frames need to be strengthened too.  But the process and engineering involved there is much more individual per opening.

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Avatar
Brian Karas
Jun 04, 2018
Pelican Zero

We have something similar, though it is internal to the window, as they are all hurricane impact rated:

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #6
Jun 04, 2018

Locks.  Check

Alarm.  Check

Cameras.  Check

Dogs.  Check

Insurance.  Check

I don't plan on doing anything else.  One of my dogs, will probably bother the intruder for attention.  The other has a nickname "The Raptor" since she has short legs and BIG teeth.  She has the taste of human memorized from an inadvertent neighbor, so I pity the person who lets themselves into the house.

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U
Undisclosed #1
Jun 04, 2018
IPVMU Certified

The other has a nickname "The Raptor" since she has short legs and BIG teeth.

Dog joke for you...

Once upon a time a couple decided they wanted to buy a guard dog to protect them.  So the wife went down to the pet store and asked to see the guard dogs:

Pet Store Employee: Sorry ma’am, we don’t sell guard dogs.  But I’ll tell you what, we do have one deceptively vicious dog right over here, that can take care of pretty much anything, nicknamed “Raptor”.

Wife: That little dog is no Raptor!

Employee: Let me demonstrate: “Raptor, the chair!”

And the little dog bit the leg right off a chair. And then

Employee: “Raptor, the table!”

And by the time the table hit the ground, the wife was convinced and bought the dog.  But when she showed her husband, he was not impressed:

Wife: Really, its vicious! The employees call it “Raptor”.

Husband: “Raptor my ass!”

And soon he was convinced ;)

 

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U
Undisclosed #8
Jun 04, 2018

Easy to get into, if you aren't deterred. And then, it will be highly probable you will be immediately detected. 

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #5
Jun 04, 2018

I've always been intrigued by "old school" solutions.  I wonder - for a home invasion while someone is home, which group has a better end?  Let's broadly define "better" as "The bad guy is no longer a risk to the resident, and the resident is safe".

Group one: Monitored home security with cameras, sensors, all the electronic bells and whistles.

Group two: Simple locked doors and windows, a noisy and visibly intimidating dog, a resident who can quickly access and competently use a firearm.

 

Not trying to start a 2A discussion, just trying to evaluate possible outcomes.

Avatar
Brian Rhodes
Jun 04, 2018
IPVMU Certified

My state is a 'castle doctrine' state which heavily favors the occupier in a home-invasion scenario (ie: the bad guy can't sue the homeowner for shooting him, etc)

However, even with that in place, someone cannot defend themselves with deadly force unless deadly force is threatened.

Now, this is where the legal rathole begins, and maybe your lawyer can passionately argue that the bad guy's clenched fist  or crowbar was demonstration enough of 'deadly force being threatened', but it stands to scrutiny that using a gun carries a whole mess of legal issues.  You can't just plug a guy for trying to steal your car parked in your garage, in other words.

So, a legally righteous self-defense shooting may stop the threat, but it can still bring lots of non-'better' outcomes that keeping the bad guys out/ running them off to begin with.

U
Undisclosed #1
Jun 04, 2018
IPVMU Certified

You can't just plug a guy for trying to steal your car parked in your garage...

...especially while he’s being mauled by your dog.

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Avatar
Jon Dillabaugh
Jun 13, 2018
Pro Focus LLC

I have a client who chased some guys down his long driveway, firing at them with a pistol, for trying to push his classic truck out of his attached garage.

His bedroom, where he and his wife were sleeping, was at the other end of the House from the garage, but his dogs barked to wake him. He quickly checked his cameras which showed the guys inside his garage.

Instinctively he jumped out of bed with his pistol and ran out the front door shooting. Didn’t hit anything but some trees and the bad guys got away empty handed. 

His wife had called the cops in the meantime, so they arrived shortly after and were aware that shooting had occurred, thanks to neighbors reporting gun shots. Also, since he has cameras, there was footage of him shooting at the bad guys if he hoped to use any footage for identification of said bad guys. 

So he admitted it and told the whole truth. He ended up getting a misdemeanor ticket for unlawful discharge of a firearm inside city limits, with a hefty $250 fine. ;)

Now, has he not been such a terrible shooter and by the grace of god had managed to shoot one of those bad guys, things might have gone down differently. Had he killed one in his driveway by shooting them in the back, he likely would have faced jail time. 

tldr;

If you are going to shoot at intruders, don’t be a good marksman too. 

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U
Undisclosed #1
Jun 13, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Had he killed one in his driveway by shooting them in the back, he likely would have faced jail time.

We were always taught from a young age, to drag the body at least partially into the house, in such a situation ;)

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Avatar
Jon Dillabaugh
Jun 13, 2018
Pro Focus LLC

Yeah, these days they have forensics, DNA testing, and black lights. Back in your day, they were probably still using slide rules and protractors. 

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U
Undisclosed #1
Jun 13, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Yeah, these days they have forensics, DNA testing, and black lights. Back in your day, they were probably still using slide rules... 

Don't know much biology, I don't know what a slide rule is for...

U
Undisclosed #1
Jun 14, 2018
IPVMU Certified

His bedroom, where he and his wife were sleeping, was at the other end of the House from the garage, but his dogs barked to wake him. 

Setting up motion alerts can be tricky business ;)

U
Undisclosed #7
Jun 13, 2018

"Instinctively he jumped out of bed with his pistol and ran out the front door shooting."

 

FTR, I think your client possesses some pretty flawed instincts.

Based on your descriptions of his 'instincts', I would not want him to be my neighbor. 

Avatar
Jon Dillabaugh
Jun 13, 2018
Pro Focus LLC

I couldn’t afford to be his neighbor, but I concur. 

U
Undisclosed #7
Jun 04, 2018

The oldest of old-school...

Group three:  Moat and drawbridge

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #5
Jun 04, 2018

Don't forget the moat monster.

U
Undisclosed #8
Jun 05, 2018

How does a firearm protect your house when you are away?

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U
Undisclosed #7
Jun 05, 2018

UDM5s comment that you are replying to lead with this premise:

"for a home invasion while someone is home"

U
Undisclosed #1
Jun 05, 2018
IPVMU Certified

How does a firearm protect your house when you are away?

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #10
Jun 06, 2018

You are assuming the homeowner is home.  The most important aspect of a monitored alarm, in my opinion, is what happens when no one is home.  Coming home to a burglary in progress can be quite dangerous. 

Having the fire department notified should a fire break out is important as well.  If home, then we're getting everyone out.  There may not be time to get to a phone, but the alarm will place a call to the Central Station who'll call the FD immediately.  And, if not home, then the monitored alarm is there to act in my absence.

U
Undisclosed #9
Jun 04, 2018

I'd rather break into my neighbors house and have them try mine.

Avatar
Campbell Chang
Jun 05, 2018

I live in a 1 bedroom apartment behind 2 EAC doors on the ground floor.

I leave the back door open in case we lock ourselves out then I jump the fence.

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U
Undisclosed #1
Jun 05, 2018
IPVMU Certified

“I live...I leave...we lock ourselves out...I jump”

Seems like you doing more than your fair share of jumping ;)

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #10
Jun 05, 2018

I locked myself out too many times and decided to do something about it.  I bought a combo lock box at a local hardware store.  This particular lock box mounts on the surface of the exterior wall and you can set the combination to open it to access a spare key.  I mounted this lock box next to my front door, using 2 1/2 " wood screws.

Now, many will think this is insecure because someone could pry it from the wall, use a cordless grinder to open it and get to the key.  But....I thought of this too.

I installed a remote magnetic contact switch on the inside of the box, so when you open the box it activates the switch.

Then, I marked a spot on the exterior wall, aligning with a hole in the back of the lock box, and  mounted the lock box to the wall feeding the wire of the magnetic contact switch into the home.

Inside the home, I place a Honeywell 5816 wireless sensor, using the sensor's terminals to attach the lock box switch.  I programmed this as a Trouble by Day / Alarm by Night, Zone Type 5.

So, if the box is opened, or pried from the wall, it triggers.  If I lock myself out and need to access this box, and I have my mobile phone, I can disarm the alarm remotely.  I can call the central station and tell them to disregard the forth coming tamper signal.  If I don't have my mobile phone, then it triggers the alarm and I deal with it once inside.

I've installed a few of these "monitored lock boxes" for my customers and it works like a charm.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Jun 05, 2018

Sounds like some of you could really use an alarm and z wave locks.

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Avatar
Brian Karas
Jun 05, 2018
Pelican Zero

I actually have Z-Wave enabled locks that are tied into our home automation system. They are not retrofittable on all the exterior doors, but for the two doors that lead from the garage to the house, and some others, I have them set to auto-lock at night or when in Away mode.

U
Undisclosed #8
Jun 05, 2018

I love my ZWave locks. I have various people working on my house right now as we prepare to sell. I give each a unique code, so if something fishy happens or someone comes back in middle of night, I would know who it was or who it was that shared the code. Also use geofencing to automate the various Bosch zwave PIRs. I have a zone in the basement, as no one working on my house right now has any business down there. They also have to turn on the light switch to see, which generates another audit trail. 

And of course, cameras on exterior, in garage, and on basement door.

Things I am going to miss while living in my "luxury apartment"...

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U
Undisclosed #7
Jun 05, 2018

I have been in the physical security industry for almost two decades - and I have never installed a home alarm nor hung a single camera in any of my residences.  ever.

Reasons:

1.  I do not perceive any value whatsoever to having a monitored alarm - unless you guarantee a physical response in under 5 minutes. (note that 5 minutes is me trying to accommodate reality.  I'd prefer 3 minutes, but recognize the logistics - and costs - of what this would entail if available). If you can't catch the perp then why am I paying ~$30/mo to be alerted that I've lost my stuff a few hours before I would have noticed this anyway?

2.  Cameras installed on the exterior of my residence would invite my neighbors and those that walk around my subdivision for exercise to ask me stupid questions about why I have them there.  And since my neighborhood is a pretty safe place, I'd rather lose a few Santa blow-ups in the winter than invite my neighbors to engage me in dumb conversations about why I have cameras looking at their property. 

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U
Undisclosed #8
Jun 05, 2018

What about push notifications to your mobile phone in lieu of alarm monitoring?

 

I haven't had any nosy neighbors, but I did help my neighbor resolve a hit and run by landscaper's trailer, someone that dumped a tire, and deterred a car burglar that hit my neighbors on both sides - just in last year.

U
Undisclosed #7
Jun 05, 2018

"What about push notifications to your mobile phone in lieu of alarm monitoring?"

I like it.  If I can control and limit false alarms that annoy me instead of informing me. Same thing that the monitoring companies would want.

 

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #10
Jun 06, 2018

Sometimes people want self-monitoring, which can be done with a module like Envisalink.  The upside is no monthly fees, you get a text message on your phone and can take the appropriate action.  I sell very few of these.

The downside to this are;

1. If you happen to be in an area with spotty cell coverage you might not get the message.

2. If you are driving on the freeway you'll need to take an exit to look at the message or risk it all looking at the message as you drive.

3. It all depends on your mobile phone access, battery and your ability to look at the message.  Could be a problem if you are in an important meeting and are ignoring your incoming calls/texts, or like I've done sometimes, I didn't hear the text or feel it vibrate when muted.

4. If you're away from home and one or more of your smoke detectors trip, do you have the phone number of your fire department?  If not, you'll go through some steps to connect and then you'll be asking them to roll out.  Let's hope you got that message and acted quickly, and did not succumb to points 1 - 3 above.

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U
Undisclosed #8
Jun 06, 2018

Even if it was 30 minutes before I noticed the notification, I still beat the monitoring company and police response. It’s been awhile since I lived/been in a monitored home, but I remember it was typically an hour before police showed up.

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U
Undisclosed #1
Jun 05, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Thanks #7, was thinking you were not gonna show...

U
Undisclosed #7
Jun 05, 2018

yeah, I'm still waiting for someone that can defend the actual value of monitored residential alarm contracts vs the perceived benefits that providers of these services sell.

The reality is: being alerted to the fact that my stuff is gone a few hours before I come home and find this out for myself is not worth me paying ~$30/mo to be alerted of this fact before I get home.

 

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U
Undisclosed #1
Jun 05, 2018
IPVMU Certified

The reality is: being alerted to the fact that my stuff is gone a few hours before I come home and find this out for myself is not worth me paying ~$30/mo to be alerted of this fact before I get home.

After triggering an alarm, burglars often wait nearby to see if there is a response or not.  If they see a response they might think twice before trying to take your Betamax.

Plus a lot of your stuff can burn in a few hours, in case of fire.

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #3
Jun 06, 2018

Not my Betamax! It's an antique!

U
Undisclosed #7
Jun 06, 2018

"After triggering an alarm, burglars often wait nearby to see if there is a response or not."

this is so not true as to be laughable. you are mistaking actual real home burglars for those that play them on tv.

 

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U
Undisclosed #1
Jun 06, 2018
IPVMU Certified

this is so not true as to be laughable. you are mistaking actual real home burglars for those that play them on tv.

Well at least I’m in good company:

Now I expect nothing less than some devastating Bruce Schneier ad hominems :)

U
Undisclosed #7
Jun 06, 2018

man, please...

"Beyond Fear: Thinking Seriously About Security In An Uncertain World"

that is the title that you are excerpting? Gee, I wonder what the writer is selling... fear maybe? NO - it can't be!  ;)

It's a slick move to try and preemptively deflect any criticisms of what you write by arguing in the beginning of your title that you aren't arguing that thing.

Master bank robbing crews (of which there are quite few) do that kinda shit.

I've read the same books that this author has.

But to insinuate that this is how more than 1 in 10M home burglars ply their trade is pure folly.

 

 

U
Undisclosed #1
Jun 06, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Anyway, let me recap your arguments and see if I have it right:

You say I’m wrong because

1) it’s laughably not true

2) I watch too much TV

3) master bank robbers do it

4) it’s an insinuation of pure folly

5) you read the same books as Bruce Schneier

U7, I wanna buy your rock :)

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U
Undisclosed #7
Jun 06, 2018

Unlike the alarm monitoring companies, I am not offering 'solutions'.

I am simply looking at what is (granted, from my perspective) and talking about the things I see.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #10
Jun 06, 2018

I've been in the electronic security industry for 30+ years and have encountered this sentiment before.  I would not want a home or business without a monitored alarm system and I make certain that my grown children have monitored alarms in their homes.  I look at it as an extra measure of precaution for little investment.  Many people don't bat an eye at spending $50 - $150 monthly for internet, TV and Netflix, but balk at $30.00 a month for alarm monitoring with remote access.

As for cameras, if you walk through most neighborhoods today, and if you know what to look for, you'll see an abundance of video devices on plenty of homes.  It's no longer the novelty it used to be. 

If a burglar breaks into your home and there is no alarm system, he/they may spend a lot more time rummaging through your home.  If a loved one comes home and encounters the burglar/s, it could get quite dangerous.  The burglar who trips an alarm has no idea where the patrol car is, or how much time they have, and is likely to spend little time attacking your home.  A monitored system alerts you that your home has been violated, and to proceed with caution when returning home.  I don't see it as a "catch the perpetrator" as much as it is a warning to the homeowner.

A monitored alarm system is also for fire detection, I have smoke and heat detectors connected to my home's alarm.  If you do not have a monitored system when a fire breaks out, the fire department will roll when your neighbors see your house fully engulfed.  A monitored alarm can get the fire dept. rolling much earlier, probably in time to stop complete destruction. 

Also, environmental sensors are connected to my home's alarm system.  In a 2 story home, with bathrooms on the second floor, flood sensors are quite nice to have.  Should a toilet tank break, or a hose pops off, the monitored alarm sends a signal to the Central Station.  Also, I have an Elk water shutoff valve which shuts off the main water supply when the flood sensor trips, all working through my Honeywell Vista 20P.  My neighbor wishes she had flood sensors when her upstairs toilet tank cracked and she was out of state for weeks.  We saw the water flowing down her driveway and shut off the main valve.  But, extensive damage had been done and it took a few months to rehab the home.

Safe neighborhoods?  Most of my installs are in "safe neighborhoods" because people call when after they, or their neighbor, have been burgled.  I have done very few installations in "unsafe" neighborhoods.  Burglars seek out nice neighborhoods too.

U
Undisclosed #7
Jun 06, 2018

"I look at it as an extra measure of precaution for little investment. Many people don't bat an eye at spending $50 - $150 monthly for internet, TV and Netflix, but balk at $30.00 a month for alarm monitoring with remote access."

 

Your response is the industry standard - and you are free to look at it as you wish - as I will continue to look at it as I do.

'Extra measure of precaution' sounds nice and fuzzy and I believe that this is why most people pay for monthly alarm monitoring service.

Not because - outside the anecdotal sales person story of doom - it provides any actual value.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #10
Jun 06, 2018

That's fine.  The value is what you place on it.  The things I've enumerated in my posts are the things I see in which a monitored alarm has value as opposed to nothing at all.  Discounting this as a sales pitch is your prerogative, but I truly believe in what I've written.

When I install and monitor alarms for loved ones, I see a value.  If a burglar breaks into my daughter's home while she's at work, it is likely the burglar won't spend much time there, that's a value in my eyes.  And, the chances of her returning home to a burglary in progress are greatly reduced, a greater value in my eyes.

Also, if a fire breaks out in her home while she's away, the chances of an early response by the fire department are greatly increased.  I see a value in that as well.

So, it's in the eyes of the beholder.

U
Undisclosed #7
Jun 06, 2018

"So, it's in the eyes of the beholder."

agreed.

"If a burglar breaks into my daughter's home while she's at work, it is likely the burglar won't spend much time there, that's a value in my eyes."

This is the type of thing that leads me to call your words an industry sales pitch.

Most burglars are more afraid of being in a place when someone comes home than your comment allows for.  Your value proposition infers that burglars are leisurely types that spend hours roaming through un-alarmed residences waiting for occupants to arrive home - which in my experience is simply just not the case.

While I agree with you that monitored fire/water sensors have some value, I still maintain that monitored burglar alarms do nothing more than alert a homeowner of egress before they find this out themselves.  Same thing a phone app can do - disregarding the industry answer of 'what if cell service is bad?".

 

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #10
Jun 06, 2018

Actually, burglars can be quite unpredictable.  I do not suggest that burglars leisurely spend hours roaming through un-alarmed homes.  A person can return home moments after a burglar kicked in a back door and have a dangerous encounter.  I've known burglars to break into a home and spend 15 to 20 minutes searching for goods to steal.  Just watch some Youtube videos and you'll see them in action.

I've known burglars to break into a home, take property and return to the home a second time for more property.  There are instances where burglars break into homes and find the homeowner's unsecured firearm, and sometimes use it on the homeowner when they return home and interrupt the burglary. 

As far as "monitored fire/water sensors" these are things typically monitored through "security alarm systems" in residential applications.  They are included in the scope of "alarm monitoring."

So, if you think these are sales pitches and should be discounted that's fine.  You claim to be in physical security, so what exactly are your recommendations?

U
Undisclosed #7
Jun 06, 2018

simple.

make your residence appear as impenetrable as possible - with motion sensor lighting and other external sensors used to give the appearance of not being an easy place to break into.

This alone will make the majority of house burglars move on to a seemingly easier target... whose occupant will most likely be quickly alerted to the break-in by their burglar alarm monitoring company.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #11
Jun 05, 2018

I had this tested recently.  I was locked out.  I ended up calling my wife to bring her keys as I was not able to find a means in.  Afterwards I replaced all the exterior door locks with August smart locks.  Now all I need to worry about is the inevitable hacks coming down the road in the near future.  Darn convenient for now though!

With that said, if I was not worried about property damage it would be very easy.  I have no cameras... outside my budget for quality product.  No alarm system other than two Beagles that howl at everything that moves.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Jun 05, 2018

Granted the traditional business model of monitored alarms is broken, relying on public law enforcement.

 

But now you have video verification, home automation, smart rules etc. Surely that is worth a monthly fee.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #10
Jun 06, 2018

I don't rely on public law enforcement much at all to respond to an alarm and catch the burglar. This is not the sole reason for a monitored alarm system.  I seldom hear about police catching a burglar due to an alarm activation.  I hear more about burglars being caught because of  alert neighbors calling when they see something suspicious. But, an alert neighbor may not always be there when the burglars visit.

Fire detection is quite important and the earlier I can get the fire department rolling the better should a fire break out.  A monitored alarm is ideal for this.

In instances of burglary, I want the burglar to know he/they've been detected and I want to know the instant they try.  I don't want to walk in on an in-progress burglary, and I don't want the burglars to take their time in my home because there was no alarm sounding.  I want an alarm to sound and I want the burglars to wonder whether they should hurry, run, or stay, and take their time.  With an alarm, chances are they'll run or at least spend very little time in my home.  Without an alarm it could be quite different in many ways.  With a monitored alarm someone is getting notified.

 

U
Undisclosed #7
Jun 06, 2018

"With an alarm, chances are they'll run or at least spend very little time in my home. Without an alarm it could be quite different in many ways."

I do not disagree with either of those statements.  Loud sounds generally make bad guys run away - faster maybe than they would without the loud sound.  But loud sounds have nothing to do with the value of monitoring (i.e. loud sounds don't require this).

"With a monitored alarm someone is getting notified."

I agree with this statement as well.  But what is the value of paying someone to be alerted who then alerts me?  Because this is exactly what happens.

Where is the value in paying for the middle man for this simple thing?

 

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #10
Jun 06, 2018

I'm not suggesting loud sounds equate to a value in monitoring. You posted, "and I have never installed a home alarm nor hung a single camera in any of my residences. ever." so I was addressing this particular part of your post as I see a value in having an alarm, monitored or not.

I think there has been a misconception about alarm monitoring from it's inception.  I don't think there was ever a time when it was expected that alarm monitoring is about a fast police response to catch a burglar.  Hollywood might be responsible for pushing this idea.  I have never, and would never, suggest this is what happens with a monitored alarm system.  It's impractical to expect the police to respond that quickly on a burglar alarm signal. 

In some cities where I install, the police response to a burglary signal could be 2 - 4 hours.  The homeowners know this, I know this, and they still opt for monitoring because it's not about "catching the perp."  I've described, at great length, the reasons for alarm monitoring.  It's not a guarantee that alarm monitoring will save you or your property from any bad things.  No one should ever sell that idea and in contracts it's spelled out that it's no guarantee.

The value for me, in alarm monitoring, is that I get busy, and am not with my phone all the time.    I've missed text messages plenty of times because I was in a meeting, had my phone muted, ignored the vibration, didn't hear the text alert, was in poor cell area, etc.   It's a value to me to know that the Central Station operator will act on any signal that comes in when I cannot.

U
Undisclosed #7
Jun 06, 2018

"It's a value to me to know that the Central Station operator will act on any signal that comes in when I cannot."

Act how?  This is the crux of my position regarding monitored burglar alarms.

What action is it that can be taken by the company that monitors your burglar alarm that you perceive value in?  I think we can all agree that response time is not sufficiently quick enough to ever catch burglars in the act.

So...simply knowing about being burglarized sooner (by being alerted by your monitoring company) than when you would have known about it when coming home and being presented with this same information later helps you how?

 

 

Avatar
Ethan Ace
Jun 06, 2018

So...simply knowing about being burglarized sooner (by being alerted by your monitoring company) than when you would have known about it when coming home and being presented with this same information later helps you how?

Let's say you're gone for 3 days. You get burgled on the night of day 1. Do you seriously believe there is no value in knowing you've been burgled until you arrive home?

If you don't, that's obviously your prerogative, but many/most are likely to say they'd see value in knowing in advance.

U
Undisclosed #7
Jun 06, 2018

In your given scenario, what does knowing about the break-in earlier change?

Other than ruining 2 days of your vacation?

I'm being facetious in my answer maybe, but one-off scenarios aren't representative of the value proposition that alarm monitoring companies sell (imo).

Instead, they sell the perception of safety (also imo).

My position is that this perception of safety is false when it comes to monitored burglar alarms - because they provide you a service that doesn't do anything to prevent anything and instead are, in practice, notification companies only

U
Undisclosed #7
Jun 06, 2018

and just to be clear:  if you value knowing about break-ins at your joint earlier than you would on your own, then by all means - pay for monitored alarms.

I am not arguing that different people have different ideas and perceptions of value.

I am only arguing that I think that most subscribers of companies that monitor burglar alarms don't really understand that this is - in practice - the only actual value that monitored burglar alarms provide:  sooner notice.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #10
Jun 05, 2018

I have a Z-Wave lock on my detached workshop and it works well.  It's a Yale and works with my Honeywell alarm system.  Also, I have a Z-wave module on my garage door, a lamp module and a thermostat module.  The problem is, the door lock is consuming batteries every month, indicating a problem with the lock and/or possibly another z-wave module interacting with it.  So, Z-Wave is fine as long as it works. 

The reason I installed a Honeywell 5816 with switch for my front door lock box, is that there was no Z-wave lock set available for my front door.  And, the existing lockset was expensive.  Also, some of my customers don't want to buy a new Z-wave lockset or Z-Wave controller  when installing an alarm system.

U
Undisclosed #8
Jun 06, 2018

I’ve been getting 6+ months out of 4 double AAs on my Schlage.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #10
Jun 06, 2018

I was getting the about the same.  But, one day my Z-wave lock indicated a low battery so I replaced them as normal.  Then, about a month later, another low battery.  I again replaced them and another month the low battery alert again.  I was told that the controller my be "beaming" the lock continuously or the lock might be latched in a continuous listening mode.  Time to un-enroll and re-enroll my Z-wave devices to see if it can be corrected, which is a pain.

(1)
U
Undisclosed #7
Jun 06, 2018

or it could be that genius home burglars are 'beaming' the lock continuously to lull you into letting your guard down and not replacing the batteries so they can then break into your house.

<Edit: Hat tip to the OP - sorry for hijacking your thread>

(1)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #6
Jun 14, 2018

Yes, I have the codes and a key. My neighbor also has a key, so I would go there and get it if necessary. 

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