I guess this is our punishment for saying something positive about Tyco.
Here is the request of a veteran Tyco national account manager sending an email he thought was to his Tyco co-worker:
His co-worker, an IPVM member, had used our easy email feature. Troy responded to that email, sending it to us instead.
It is disappointing that an employee at a huge company would do something like this. Do the right thing, you are professionals.
Send'em a login, just to see what he thinks about the top article...
I responded to the Tyco employee and here was his counter:
"My company won’t buy a multi license. We should be allowed to share this information off of 1 account."
Evidently, Tyco's position is that, if they don't want to pay, they should just get it for free. What an embarrassment.
One would think Tyco would abide by the terms of licensing / contracts. Evidently not.
I used to work at Stanley, I wouldnt have had the foggiest idea how to even attempt to go through HQ to get access - big corporations can be a nightmare on things such as this. If there was a cure for cancer alot of corporations would die waiting for thier own paperwork to process.
Not that I am condoning this - I'd still attempt to get it done right.
Scott, I believe that.
But if they can't get legitimate access, the correct course of action is to refrain, not to try to steal it.
100% agree - like I said, I didn't condone his action and I'd do it legitimately.
That's what per diem is for. Eat cheap for a few days on the road, and IPVM is covered.
If this TYCO employee really wants IPVM access and TYCO won't buy a multi license, then he simply should get a personal one and put it on his expense account. Or pay it himself- it's not a big amount.
While I agree with your sentiment John, I'm surprised you feel the need to broadcast this into the IPVM forum, it doesn't serve any positive purpose and just helps lowers the tone of discussion.
There is a lot that is admirable and unique about IPVM as a source of information and discussion within our community, but lately it seems to be as much about playing the man (or a company) as the ball, and usually in a negative way.
It makes a statement against misuse / abuse. Why should I keep quiet when employees at huge powerful companies do things like this?
As for our coverage, look at it in its entirety. Of our last 5 product test results, 3 have been positive (Hikvision, Arecont, Vivotek) and 2 negative (Samsung, Speco). And speaking of negativity against companies, this whole thing above happened because we wrote a glowing positive review of a Tyco product.
I work for a huge multinational company - and yes, it is a pain to get a PO to renew IPVM, but agree: things that are sold have to be paid for if you want to use them.
in past 25 year, i have faced this many many times, either a subcribtion or some equipment for testing.. getting the approval is an impossible task at all the corporations & large companies.
if anybody need it baddly, then buy it in your personal capacity, d'not think of it as expense but an investment., of course goes without saying if you cannot afford it then do not use other means..
Its the same with software, I have legal copies instead of pirated onces or just use it for the trail periods. Music, which is shared between friends / family and you are never sure if its a legal copy. I guess on this count I may be guilty..
Music, which is shared between friends / family and you are never sure if its a legal copy.
Regardless of whether the copy itself is legal or not, 'sharing' a 'copy' is not.
Interesting discussion. I purchased my IPVM license to keep myself informed as a Security Professional for the company I work for. In the course of my work, I have admittedly passed along pertinent information on a handful of excellent (in my opinion) reviews of best practices, and Camera reviews on equipment we use, but always without the use of IPVM as my source.
I mentioned to management about fronting the cost for a subscription, and was turned down. Consequently, I am the most informed person on video within a company of 200 employees. Think I'm going to let someone have for free what I personnaly paid for? Think again.
When I tell people why I subscribe to IPVM and why they should also, I say "1/3 of the value is in the research, 2/3 is because of everyone else who is on it: The comments and perspectives from the movers/shakers who subscribe to IPVM are often more valuable than the articles themselves".
I suspect it's the same for many of us.
Often the reason WHY someone buys a product is different from what the seller suspects. While IPVM has every right to call out subscription abuse like this, I think it should be done more privately. The considerable value here of user-generated content should be considered in subscription enforcement. You do what ya gotta do, but IPVM now has the critical mass where it builds on itself, so perception matters. Enforcement should be done privately and if it can't, with more anonymity and less snark.
"The considerable value here of user-generated content should be considered in subscription enforcement."
So you believe that calling out something like this will reduce user-generated comments?
You are inferring that, I did not state that. I had not yet implied any specific consequence. What I will state now is this:
IPVM is similar to a private park or club. Members, through their active membership, increase the value and attractiveness of the club. You own this club, and it is your prerogative to enforce its rules as you see fit. That said, how you enforce the rules matters, considering the nature of the product.
My dad once told me, "When you're right and she's wrong, think about how right you want to be." This little gem has kept him happily married to mom for 50 years, and works well in business also.
Jonathan,
I see no connection between criticizing a Tyco employee publicly and overall commenting levels.
Indeed, I am not married or related to any IPVM member so the sage advice of your father is less than applicable to running an Internet business / forum.
Our approach is that comments are a nice addition, when they are neither promotional nor ignorant (which are common problems), but our focus is building the product - testing, tools and analysis. We do that right and we will have more than enough smart commenters on the site.
Indeed, I am not married or related to any IPVM member...
So you saying, no one of your family's members have interest in first handedly admire your creation of vast articles/debates, ever even?
Or do you share them login?
* just really extra kidding, promise, to liten up a bit :)
Tedor, enough. Your commenting is overboard at this point. We are more than happy to let members express their opinion (as this discussion amply shows) but at some point, it becomes trolling. Stop.
It rubbed me the wrong way. Enough that I'd rather remain anonymous for this comment...
To be clear, undisclosed comments are not anonymous. We see who the posters are but we do not disclose them to others. We see who they are to make sure that an undisclosed comment is not promotional or being used to unfairly attack a competitor.
As for criticizing us, I do not mind. My issue is when people post over and over again with the same criticisms or bizarre off topic comments. That becomes a tax on us and something we will not support.
I think calling them out publicly forces them, at higher levels, to review what happened, put policy in place so no other employee tries to steal like this again AND.....added bonus, upper levels will then be forced to learn more about the value of IPVM and then maybe they'll expedite the process and buy licenses for key people!
On that note John - I've seen a lot of subscription products that do offer packages of licenses at higher prices, usually 5-10, 10 & more. Maybe coming up with a "Corp License" that costs $1000.00 a year or something along those lines would work? That would give a company of 200 employee's full acess and you'd be making $800.00 more than you would if they all signed up individually. Of course, this could bite you if a company of 20k employees signed up :) Just a thought.
At the end of the day, if a salesperson isn't making enough money in this industry to afford to come out of pocket personally a mere $99.00 a year in exchange for the level of information he/she will get from membership - they need to find another career. I've been paying personally for 4 or 5 years (I forget) because my companies wouldn't pay either - that didn't stop me from wanting the education so I bought the membership myself.
Also - if you're going to work in the SECURITY industry - for petes sake don't STEAL. Its what we're all trying to combat!!!
Meghan,
Thanks. FYI - We do have larger group plans up to 100 users - see large plans here.
The main problem I have seen with bigger companies like Tyco are:
That being said, almost every major surveillance manufacturer in the world has senior people who read IPVM every week, though most would not ever publicly acknowledge it or share it with their staff.
Simple solution:
IPVM limited member sharing!
Let's face it, if non-member Boss really wants xyz report on IPVM, the member is likely to comply, rather than to strain his employment. If the Boss is paying or authorizing payment to IPVM for the employee's subscription, it's almost a certaintity, i.e. "You wanna keep getting that subscription?". If the employee then is pressured into actually giving his credentials to his boss, then this, among other things, devalues the membership and decreases the chances of IPVM acquiring a new member.
But what if...
Every member had a limited number of I-shares allocated a year, say three. Using the e-mail feature this would allow the member to occasionally give a valuable report to a trusted colleague. The document would be clearly marked as "This report was authorized for <colleague name> by <member name>, and no one else." This dual-assignment creates a pact between the sendee and the sender which neither is likely to violate.
Anytime an I-share recipient was converted to membership, the I-share sender would receive more I-shares to share.
Benefits
Drawbacks
It's worth considering. We've talked internally about some tactics to allow limited sharing.
The problem, in this case, was the brazen 'send me your login', not simply the post.
This is a great idea - as a member I would like to be able to share a few articles a year that are of particular relevancy to my co-workers.
Ultimately implemented by allowing sharing of a month of articles instead of just one.
In this case do you know if the subscription in question is paid or reimbursed by the company? If the company pays, you might often find that the request of "Who's got the login for IPVM?" is morally considered about as much as "Who's got the three hole punch?" Not that it's right, just reality.
The fact that the e-mail contains only this
Send me your login
not as a question, but a unqualified command, indicates that the sender thought it was a trivial request, and gave it little ethical thought. More blasé than 'brazen'.
You may be energizing the incident a bit with your own indignity.
Brazen is what manifests when he is forced to justify his actions and counter your condemnation of his ethics, but before that it was just another e-mail. Just an observation.
Your comment:
You may be energizing the incident a bit with your own indignity.
...really sums it all up. This is John's and his employees' livelihood, and he has every right to protect it. However, immediately assuming nefarious intent, and reacting strongly and publicly, might scare some people off....that's my $0.02.
And it may motivate other people not to do the same.
Thanks for your concern, Jonathan. I recognize the potential upsides and downsides to this.
I don’t see anything wrong with calling someone out, this shows me you’re honest and expect honesty.
It would be nice if there were an option to pay $XX.XX/year to download XX articles in PDF format for distributing to employees.
@mr john honovich
Well call me a nervous nellie but some of the 'potential downsides', as you call'em, of your actions are enough to scare the whiskers clean off a bobcat.
I can only gather that T. (Troy), has given you permission to copy his mistakenly addressed e-mail and to publicize it to thousands of people 'round the world. Because without his thumbs up, then some of them legal consequences of the unauthorized publication of a private persons facts and e-mail could be 'potentially' most negative.
And, no sir, even an admission of guilt on the phone does not grant you the legal right to make embarrassing public disclosures about a private person, whether they be true or not. (Note: Saying anything to thousands is considered public, pay wall or otherwise)
And then you got the fact that it was disclosed first-off to people in his industry, including current and future employers, which would 'potentially' rachet-up the award amount, since it could hurt his earnings for years to come.
Then to top it all off, you were not even the intended recipient of T's e-mail. And even though you darn well knew it was mis-addressed, you done published it anyhow!
I'm sure you checked out, as I did, what the legal consequences of publishing the contents of misdelivered/misaddressed mail are. 'Potentially' heinous. When you know its misaddressed, that is. Like you did.
But maybe you are banking on the fact that T. would like to keep his job and just wants to lay low, by which I reckon you're prolly right. Anyway, like you say its just a 'potential' downside, a little money and a good lawyer goes a long way towards beating down this type of case.
Legality aside, Mister, the real problem here is you are a public figure. And although you done agreed to trade some of your privacy for notoriety, T. did not. You have direct and instant access to various media channels to give your point of view. T. does not. There is a responsibility that comes with power. You, sir, have abused that power.
And as for your wallet, maybe you are right and your public stockading of T. will scare any of them deadbeats out there to pony-up $200 to a subscription to IPVM pronto. But is it worth the fact that to the members, and to us 'ignorant posters', you just come off as a self-indulgent prick? It's time I done saddle-up.
Good luck, y'all!
John, you may be right, you got the info. But I reckon my point was that even a lawsuit that you beat the pants off of would be a potential downside. Anyway, do you feel like sharing what'all legal theory makes your defense such a walk in the park?
Is it on account of the fact that T.
Y'all I really did cancel, but I guess you gotta log out before it kicks in.
Which I'm doin' now, scouts honor.
Jim, you never stated any laws or legal principles behind your long winded, bold faced argument. The only thing close to your claims is the 'publication of private facts' doctrine, which this case absolutely does not fall under:
Now in u.s. one has instant copyrights to creator?
Even for e-mail, a so short work, they say.
So if he asserts himself at claims infringing material.
You squarely fire fair usage back, with journalistic rights prevailing.
this is the way it goes?
Publishing emails is a standard practice in publications. Fair use.
Here, somewhere in Eastern Europe, is different but also lawful practice.
If I get letter in mail, but i can tell its not meant for me, i need stop reading and must handover back to postbagger, no matter how juicy, and i go off to forget it.
Probably we have it because they make so many postal mistakes, listen - one time i got letter from uncle, 2 years after was already dead, saying he was still doing just fine!
Troy's email in question was sent to john@ipvm.com, your hypothetical is not applicable here.
Why is Troy expected to follow a "Club" rule, if he isn't a "Club" member. How do you know he even knows the rules. Has he ever been a member here? Do you assume everyone in the industry knows about this website and cares enough to dive into the agreement?
The real question here is did the IPVM member share their login / password. If so THAT is the person you should be attacking. If not this entire thread was created in false light.
He did know and even after I reminded him, his response was:
"My company won’t buy a multi license. We should be allowed to share this information off of 1 account."
He did not want to abide by the 'rule'.
And even the initial request 'send me your login' makes it clear he knows it was not his.
And this is not a 'rule', this is a contract. And as security professionals, you should abide by such contracts.
So what contract do you have with non-members?
So if a friend asks me for my login, and I say no....
What contract do you have with him?
What contract do you have with me that I broke?
If Troy isn't a member, he can't break a contract with you, he can't break the rules. He isn't bound by them because... He isn't a member.
If you disagree with that, I have a club, and your dues are past due.
But I'll ask again.. The real question here is did the IPVM member share their login / password. If so THAT is the person you should be attacking. If not this entire thread was created in false light.
I am not asking to get illicit access to your 'club', that's the point / difference here.
This person knew he did not have access. This person requested access anyway from someone who did, even though he know that the access was not allowed to be shared.
For a 3rd and final time.
Did the IPVM member share their login / password?
I have never alleged that the member shared their password.
My point remains about what the non member knowingly and wrongly attempted to do. Your club analogy is fallacious and distracting from the real issue.
So just to be 100% clear, you in no way were damaged by his actions.
Coppyright isn't the issue here... Nothing was distributed.
The rules aren't the issue here, none of them were broken.
Employee One wants in for free by using Employee Two's account
Employee Two says no.
Employee One does not gain access.
"Why should I keep quiet when employees at huge powerful companies do things like this?"
- do things like what? Follow your policy 100%
Try climbing the fence at a sporting venue without a ticket....you'll be arrested! This is the same thing, the guy is trying to get into something he knows he doesn't have a ticket for. He's lucky Johns being so easy on him.
Good analogy Meghan! I agree with you.
The IPVM member should have mentioned that he has a referal link that will offer the other tyco employee reduced membership. John works really hard to provide good information to the marketplace and I respect him for fighting against unauthorized distribution of his intellectual property.
I totally disagree.. Its more like you ask your friend if you can climb the fence, he says no, so you don't..... But get arrested anyway.
There was no unauthorized distribution of IP.
There wasn't even a chance of it, thanks to a Tyco Employee.
The title of this could be "Tyco Employee refuses to share login information" but in IPVM fashion, the focus is on the negative.
Is it possible that the employee in question was unaware of IPVM's policy on account sharing when he asked for the login? Even though it's a poor excuse, it's entirely possible that this person never bothered to read the licensing agreement. It definitely doesn't excuse his reponse after being called out, either.
The good member (if he want to) might say what he think the co-colleage's IPVM knowlege of terms and condition was when he made that tempting email to go to him.
He maybe not know IPVM like us toughed veterans, and we would never miss it in the reply To: box. But easier still to miss if good member email address look like johns email address a little, confusingly.
Nor he didn't say "can you send your login, again?" (now that would have been so much worser for everyone, right?!), so maybe he wasn't that familiar, till john email him back with hard questions, of course.
Tedor, why the speculation?
Even if "he wasn't that familiar' at first, he showed, in his response to my explicit response, that he knew and still did not care - "My company won’t buy a multi license. We should be allowed to share this information off of 1 account."
We have all made our points here. If you have new information or perspective, feel free to add. Otherwise, it is unproductive to just go back and forth like this.
Why the spectulation?
Because i think you forgot how things get going in real world sometimes with real members. Ask memebers how they got started. You might suprise yourself.
Troy is not criminal, he is customer, or as close as they come before coming as customer. Look at him, he wants YOUR product! That is hardest part!! The day nobody ask to use somebody else IPVM login is day IPVM close up their shop doors.
And most important fact, he was only ASKING for access, he can't get it without going directly thru your only and best SALESPERSON, the trusty IPVM member!
What if instead of slapping his red-handed wrists, you said "Troy, its John the owner, hehe, you made a email mistake, but here is the article that you wanted anyway since we don't like logins to be shared."
Suggest, next time let IPVM member salesforce handle it, we havent let you down so far, did we?
Arrest yes, but shoot on fence?
If crime committed John should call cops, arrest him.
Punish must fit crime.
He's lucky Johns being so easy on him.
Meghan, serious, what have in mind for more punishment?
I find it baffling that we can beat the hell out of companies in the industry who we suspect of wild marketing claims or other nefarious deeds that are not often "black and white," yet so many come to the aid of an individual in this case--which is quite black and white.
Person did not have a membership. Person stated an awareness of not having a membership in his reply and that it should not matter. What could be more wrong than that?
Of all the industries where some integrity ought to exist, it still amazes me how fleeting it often is in this one.
As to John's actions, I applaud him for it. Even though I am a huge advocate of customer service over the years, there are those situations (even in multi-million dollar companies) where one has to put their foot down.
Somehow this got turned around to take the focus off the clear wrongdoing of the non-member. "That" is the issue, not all the nuances about process and protections and other attempts to downplay a clear wrong.
When you state that the employee who was asked to give up his log in didnt - you are forgetting 1 thing.
The employee never received the request - John did. He is pointing out the brazen demand for the login and the callous attitude afterward when he approached the wrong-doer with it.
While this is a heavy handed approach, I think its warranted. Its basically the same thing as sneaking into a movie theater when the ticket counter is distracted, is it ok? No. Actually, its like asking your friend to go open the side door of the theater to let you in.
Actually...
Its more like you want to ask the friend to let you in the side door of a theater.
You accidently ask the theater
The Theater says no
You don't go in.
There is no crime there... Nothing was stolen, no one was damaged.
Everyone needs to stop using examples where there is actual damage, as there was no damage here.
Morally it is wrong, and there was clear intent. Although this may not be a crime, there are many crimes that only need to have intent.
My opinion Tyco should spend the money for the employees to be educated. I spoke to a rep last year and he didn't know what ONVIF was (yes he used to sell us cameras).
You don't need damages to be guilty. You can be found guilty of attempting the crime alone. The thief does not need to be successful in his attempt to break the law.
Ok. Then we should doing like same as print movie banners in all theatres around country, say
Ted Gligorich ask friend to let him on side, but really asked owner instead. Can you believe he could really brazen like that? Here his picture and email and contact info. Look at the bad man!
is that how your lady o liberty would smite them with justice?
John, it looks strange to me that you judge a company with with +80K employes around the world on the miss behaviour of one. I think you put yourself in a very bad position, far away from the neutral zone wher you should be. Should we organzie a charity?
Stephan, He is a Tyco employee. It's a fact.
It's your interpretation that I am judging the entire company. I am not.
Tyco's position is that, if they don't want to pay, they should just get it for free. What an embarrassment. One would think Tyco would abide by the terms of licensing / contracts. Evidently not.
???
This is the song that never ends.
It just goes on and on, my friends!
Somebody started singing it, not knowing what it was,
And we'll continue singing it forever just because...
This is the song that never ends.
It just goes on and on my friends
Come on, everyone join in!
Thank you. Actually, I'm more disappointed in myself for actually getting this far down the thread than I am that it's this long to begin with.
I buy my membership with my own money because my company won't pay for it (for reasons I won't state here). I do it because I find value in the product. When I learn something new / interesting, I share with my boss and tell him where I learned it. I'm hoping to change the company perception.
I would never illegally share content because, as others have stated, it's prohibited. If asked to share, I'll do so verbally. If they want to read it, they're welcome to sit with me at my desk (I think that's okay, right?). Beyond that, if they really want it, they can buy their own membership.
Seriously, that's what this all comes down to...if someone -- an industry professional -- isn't willing to spend $200 for their own professional education, then I'm sure they wouldn't know how to truly benefit from the information anyway...at least in a way that's not prohibited.
Who says subliminal advertising doesn't work?
;)
John I think if you check your log-in activity, you will see that there are quite a few Tyco employees with individual memberships that are paid for by Tyco. You might not be able to see who pays for them but the email addresses are there. I am one of them. Apparently this guy just doesn't' know how to get it done.
We appreciate all your hard work
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